Templates: ITPC subject code

[Jürgen Karbach]

Trying to use ITPC subject code, I'm wondering about its appearance.

Why is there only a search by numbers / code?

It's like searching a phone connection by number,

having only an idea on the name

.

• At least a code/name-combined dropdown field should be more helpful
  and will increase the usage / acceptance of this feature.

 

• Is somewhere an extended set of ITPC subject codes?
• How to import in digiKam?

Maybe someone here is already using it and can explain how to.

 

Jürgen Karbach

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[Jean-François Rabasse]

> Subject: [Digikam-users] Templates: ITPC subject code

Hello Jürgen,

On Wed, 27 Mar 2013, H. Jürgen Karbach wrote:

> Trying to use ITPC subject code, I'm wondering about its
> appearance. Why is there only a search by numbers / code?
> It's like searching a phone connection by number,
> having only an idea on the name.
>
>    * At least a code/name-combined dropdown field should
>    be more helpful
>    and will increase the usage / acceptance of this
>    feature.

Well, it would be a *huge* multi levels drop-down menu
because the IPTC controlled vocabulary is quite large and
codes are structured by digits fields. The Digikam templates
dialog shows the human readable translation, e.g. if you
select code 08000000 you get the Name « human interest » .

If you select the subcode 08003000, you get same Name plus
Matter, « people » , and if you select the subsubcode
08003002, you get the extra Detail « celebrity » .

Roughly, it's the same as using structured tags, composite
code 08003002 means : Human interest/People/Celebrity.

I agree the GUI isn't that convenient because you need to
select codes to see the meaning. A help is to have, in
another window, a full list of codes with their meaning.
For example, you can open a web browser and display this
page : http://xml.coverpages.org/NITF30-subject-codes.html
Scrolling the page will help you selecting a category,
a subcategory, the final code.
But, true, that's not great.

Anyway (and this is my personal opinion only ! ) I think
this is a bit useless in a software like Digikam. The first
reason is that the IPTC codes have been designed for Press
agencies, and the vocabulary relates to press photos
content, stored in agencies images banks. Not everybody
holding a camera is a professional press reporter and many
other people may wish to use different vocabularies.
Digikam is a software for photo hobbyists, not to manage a
press images bank, and controlled vocabularies, as the IPTC,
relate to one professional area, nothing more.

Professional reporters have the tools to feed their agency
database with their works, usually the corporate database
interface with these tags structure.

>    * Is somewhere an extended set of ITPC subject codes?

No extended set because IPTC subject codes are a controlled
vocabulary, i.e. the list is fixed and under management.
It's not a managed vocabulary where you can add your
personal extensions.

>    * How to import in digiKam?

Hem, I'm not sure of what you mean with « import » ?
I am not a IPTC user, having my personal managed vocabulary,
but I think it could be possible (and more comfortable) to
work with the Digikam structured tags, as I said above :
Human interest/People/Celebrity and thus get the IPTC
subjects under a more readable and flexible way.

Regards,
Jean-François

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[Jürgen Karbach]

Hello Jean-Françoir,

thank you for detailed reply.

I have been studied all information, I could get about this issue.
Including the webpage you adviced.
Unfortunately I supposed what you affirmed.
There is no further content (with interrest for amateur photographers).
But as a confirmed optimist I hoped for the opposite.

I also agree, its not usable for amateur photographers like us.

I'm using the tags for categorising my pictures.
But having a controlled (tag)-vokabulary would be great.
A catalog like http://www.coolcolours.ch/coolcolours-en.php?A=Software
with more than 22.000 english and german terms would be a good starting point.
;)
But how to get it in digiKam?
I guess digiKam knows only tags that are assigned to one of the pictures in
database.

Jürgen

Am Mittwoch, 27. März 2013, 18:36:13 schrieb Jean-François Rabasse:

> > Subject: [Digikam-users] Templates: ITPC subject code
>
> Hello Jürgen,
>
> On Wed, 27 Mar 2013, H. Jürgen Karbach wrote:
> > Trying to use ITPC subject code, I'm wondering about its
> > appearance. Why is there only a search by numbers / code?
> > It's like searching a phone connection by number,
> > having only an idea on the name.
> >
> >    * At least a code/name-combined dropdown field should
> >    be more helpful
> >    and will increase the usage / acceptance of this
> >    feature.
>
> Well, it would be a *huge* multi levels drop-down me
> because the IPTC controlled vocabulary is quite large and
> codes are structured by digits fields. The Digikam templates
> dialog shows the human readable translation, e.g. if you
> select code 08000000 you get the Name « human interest » .
>
> If you select the subcode 08003000, you get same Name plus
> Matter, « people » , and if you select the subsubcode
> 08003002, you get the extra Detail « celebrity » .
>
> Roughly, it's the same as using structured tags, composite
> code 08003002 means : Human interest/People/Celebrity.
>
> I agree the GUI isn't that convenient because you need to
> select codes to see the meaning. A help is to have, in
> another window, a full list of codes with their meaning.
> For example, you can open a web browser and display this
> page : http://xml.coverpages.org/NITF30-subject-codes.html
> Scrolling the page will help you selecting a category,
> a subcategory, the final code.
> But, true, that's not great.
>
> Anyway (and this is my personal opinion only ! ) I think
> this is a bit useless in a software like Digikam. The first
> reason is that the IPTC codes have been designed for Press
> agencies, and the vocabulary relates to press photos
> content, stored in agencies images banks. Not everybody
> holding a camera is a professional press reporter and many
> other people may wish to use different vocabularies.
> Digikam is a software for photo hobbyists, not to manage a
> press images bank, and controlled vocabularies, as the IPTC,
> relate to one professional area, nothing more.
>
> Professional reporters have the tools to feed their agency
> database with their works, usually the corporate database
> interface with these tags structure.
>
> >    * Is somewhere an extended set of ITPC subject codes?
>
> No extended set because IPTC subject codes are a controlled
> vocabulary, i.e. the list is fixed and under management.
> It's not a managed vocabulary where you can add your
> personal extensions.
>
> >    * How to import in digiKam?
>
> Hem, I'm not sure of what you mean with « import » ?
> I am not a IPTC user, having my personal managed vocabulary,
> but I think it could be possible (and more comfortable) to
> work with the Digikam structured tags, as I said above :
> Human interest/People/Celebrity and thus get the IPTC
> subjects under a more readable and flexible way.
>
> Regards,
> Jean-François

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[Jean-François Rabasse]

Hello Jürgen,

On Thu, 28 Mar 2013, H. Jürgen Karbach wrote:

> I have been studied all information, I could get about
> this issue. Including the webpage you adviced.
> Unfortunately I supposed what you affirmed. There is no
> further content (with interrest for amateur
> photographers). But as a confirmed optimist I hoped for
> the opposite.
>
> I also agree, its not usable for amateur photographers
> like us.

This is the major inconvenient with vocabularies.
All compilations target a professional area. IPTC was
designed for press agencies photo reporters and would be of
no use for, e.g., medical imagery databases or even photo
hobbyists centers of interest.

Someone may be fond of birds photography and will wish
dozens of tags referring to birds names and families.
And other users will want some other tags and when possible
extensible tags sets. (I am personally fond of architecture
and have in my tags several architectural styles
definitions. Last summer, I was in Austria, Vienna,
and needed to increase my vocabulary with entries such as
Jugendstil or Biedermeier, I hadn't yet.)

> I'm using the tags for categorising my pictures.
> But having a controlled (tag)-vokabulary would be great.

I'd recommend you prefer a managed vocabulary, rather than a
controlled vocabulary. Managed vocabulary is more personal
and can be extensible according to your needs (cf. supra).
Controlled vocabulary is a registered fixed standard and
the rule is « use it or forget it ».

But true, vocabularies are great features and allow easy
classement and reorganization. Access to tags can be done
via numeric keys as in IPTC or more readable text keys
(aliases). Also, a keyed vocabulary can, if needed,
permit languages translation on a per key basis with textual
meaning in English, German, French, etc.

> A catalog like
> http://www.coolcolours.ch/coolcolours-en.php?A=Software
> with more than 22.000 english and german terms would be a
> good starting point. ; )

Maybe... But 22000 is huge and if it increases your chances
to find the exact tag you need at a moment, it doesn't
guarantee you'll always find everything you need, depending
of your personal images and you personal interests.
Most photo hobbyists don't use that much tags.

> But how to get it in digiKam? I guess digiKam knows only
> tags that are assigned to one of the pictures in database.

Yes. But Digikam can create new tags « on the fly » when you
read metadata from images.
With a bit of scripting work and command line tools,
it's very easy to tag images from command line, e.g. in a
subdirectory :

     exiftool -xmp:TagsList+=Location/France/Paris *.JPG

then, in Digikam, select images and re-read metadata.
Tagging from command line or from inside Digikam is only a
matter of taste.

It's also possible to « read » a vocabulary tags file and
set all of them to a dummy image. Reading metadata from that
image will create all tags. I happened to do such thing but
with a limited number of tags, several tens. Not 22000 : -)

Regards,
Jean-François





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[Jürgen Karbach]

Hello Jean-François,

sorry for being so late. But our DSL-Line was broken for some days :-(.
But, hey, I'm still alive. How could i be? ;)

Am Freitag, 29. März 2013, 09:30:23 schrieb Jean-François Rabasse:
> Controlled vocabulary is a registered fixed standard and
> the rule is « use it or forget it ».

Oh. I didn't realize, that CV is a fixed standard.
I believed that it concerns with CV a general name for hierarchical listings
of concepts of one or several subject ranges; not a monolith.

What I want, are several parts of a defined set of subject codes.
Not only for my personel use; also for sharing in with other people (friends,
other photographers (togs), foto-community e.g.).
E.g. you are working / hobbying on a wedding.
If you have a managed vocabulary for wedding photos, you can tag them very
easy by general tags like "Bride", "Bride's father", Bride's mother, Groom,
...). So it would be much easier to match the pictures of all togs of a event
to one homogeneous set of tags.

Btw. Maybe it would be a good idea to extend digiKam's face detection with a
second column called "profession" or "role" or something in that way, so it
isn't in digiKam's person-database, but tagged as [role]. You already can
select it by first-time-naming a person. With the "second column you able to
name and tag in one go.

I don't want to annoy you.
But, in my opinion, to have a copy of the ITPC-subject-code fields for
individual or group purpose will be the better way. Because, beside the
description you have a field for a code that give you the option of multi-
lingual tagging in one go.

Maybe this will cause a second row at the second column. ;)

> It's also possible to « read » a vocabulary tags file and
> set all of them to a dummy image. Reading metadata from that
> image will create all tags. I happened to do such thing but
>  with a limited number of tags, several tens. Not 22000 : -)

Is there any How-To ?
Can you give me a hint?

Greetings

Jürgen Karbach
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[Jean-François Rabasse]

Hello Jürgen,

On Tue, 9 Apr 2013, H. Jürgen Karbach wrote:

>> Controlled vocabulary is a registered fixed standard and
>> the rule is « use it or forget it ».
>
> Oh. I didn't realize, that CV is a fixed standard.
> I believed that it concerns with CV a general name for hierarchical listings
> of concepts of one or several subject ranges; not a monolith.

It is, and for professional usage it's a necessity.
The problem with extensible indexing vocabularies is that when you add
some new keywords/tags, your current database should be browsed again
to identify those images that become relevant, wrt the new tags (tags
that didn't exist at the time the image was archived and indexed).

If you are an amateur, hobyist, with hundreds or thousands of images,
this work remains possible, even though it's work ! More, if you are
the only images provider of your personal collections, your memory
will help looking for ancient images that are to be reindexed with your
new tags.
But if you are a press agency, with tens of millions of images, collected
from hundreds of individuals, photoreporters et al., the a posteriori
reindexing is impossible. So, once in use, the vocabulary must be a fixed
standard.


> E.g. you are working / hobbying on a wedding.
> If you have a managed vocabulary for wedding photos, you can tag them very
> easy by general tags like "Bride", "Bride's father", Bride's mother, Groom,
> ...). So it would be much easier to match the pictures of all togs of a event
> to one homogeneous set of tags.

See what you mean, I happened to do two wedding albums with around 300
images for each one. But I didn't had to face tags inconsistencies issues
because many guests sent me images but no one did the tagging job:-)
(It's very easy to take 10000 pictures of a wedding, with the camera set
on burst mode, but tagging is work and most people are lazy.)

But if you work with serious people, it's not a problem to decide and share
a common tags vocabulary, suited for the occasion.
Anyway, be sure not to go too far in your definitions. When I read your
example, I have the feeling this goes perhaps out of the scope of a tags
activity. Tags or keywords are properties, or attributes, you put on an
entity, be it a picture, a document, other. And yes, « bride » is such
an image property. But what about « brides'father » ? To me it sounds
rather like a relation between two entities. You can say « X is the father
of bride Y », but this makes sense in a relational database, and when one
of your entities, X or Y, is removed, the relation disappears.

But it's another topic and, in my opinion, it's not the kind of job that
could be expected from amateurs images management software. Indexing
databases is a specific task that lies outside images edition issues
and should probably require dedicated software. And this is not something
that interest a majority of users, that's why images management software
are more or less weak regarding metadata issues, tags issues, etc., and
mostly focus on images edition and processing.


> Btw. Maybe it would be a good idea to extend digiKam's face detection with a
> second column called "profession" or "role" or something in that way, so it
> isn't in digiKam's person-database, but tagged as [role]. You already can
> select it by first-time-naming a person. With the "second column you able to
> name and tag in one go.

Cf. supra, here you start designing an individuals data base, not an images
tagging architecture. Role why not, Profession why not, but someone else
will also want the age or birthdate, and users interested in genealogy and
families trees will also want extra information, « X is the nephew of ... »
For me, looks like a Pandora's box :-)


>> It's also possible to « read » a vocabulary tags file and
>> set all of them to a dummy image. Reading metadata from that
>> image will create all tags. I happened to do such thing but
>>  with a limited number of tags, several tens. Not 22000 : -)
>
> Is there any How-To ?
> Can you give me a hint?

I don't think there's any How-To, because every procedure is fully
user dependent. What I mentionned is the possibility of tagging images
using command line tools. E.g. you wish to add a location tag to an
image, exiftool will do :
   exiftool -xmp-digikam:tagslist+=Location/France/paris  IMAGE.JPG

NB: exiv2 will do too, but I don't known the syntax.

So it really depends on what you plan to do. Il you just want to create
and set a new tag, probably the Digikam GUI is Ok for that.
If you plan to index a large bunch of images, with some tags series,
writing a couple of shell scripts using commands as above will make it
easy to process images folders.
Of course, after that, you have to update Digikam by selecting images
and running « Reread metadata ».


Regards,
Jean-François
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