Review of Digikam

[Wayne-8]

Just saw this negative review of Digikam:
http://applications.linux.com/applications/06/12/06/158220.shtml?tid=13&tid=39&tid=47

Wayne
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[Gilles Caulier-2]

Le samedi 16 décembre 2006 05:39, wayne a écrit :
> Just saw this negative review of Digikam:
> http://applications.linux.com/applications/06/12/06/158220.shtml?tid=13&tid
>=39&tid=47
>
> Wayne

My viewpoint is simple : it's uninterressing for me and do on unconstructive
way...

Gilles
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[Dik Takken]

On Sat, 16 Dec 2006, Caulier Gilles wrote:

> Le samedi 16 décembre 2006 05:39, wayne a écrit :
>> Just saw this negative review of Digikam:
>> http://applications.linux.com/applications/06/12/06/158220.shtml?tid=13&tid
>> =39&tid=47
>>
>> Wayne
>
> My viewpoint is simple : it's uninterressing for me and do on unconstructive
> way...

Indeed, the article is not written in a very constructive way. Not well
argued, and no solutions are suggested. Not much more than a 'I like
this application, and I don't like the others' kind of story.

On the other hand: If DigiKam users find that any of the criticism is
justified, they can turn it into something constructive by filing
well argued problem descriptions and possible solutions as wishlist items
on bugs.kde.org.

Dik
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Dik Takken a écrit :

> Indeed, the article is not written in a very constructive way. Not well
> argued, and no solutions are suggested. Not much more than a 'I like
> this application, and I don't like the others' kind of story.

he likes Picassa, what I don't (I nearly hate this one)
>
> On the other hand: If DigiKam users find that any of the criticism is
> justified, they can turn it into something constructive by filing well
> argued problem descriptions and possible solutions as wishlist items on
> bugs.kde.org.

many of his criticisms are justified (at least until 8.0
version), but digikam works quite well. The ability of
making some edits is mandatory for me, digital cams gives us
tons of images mostly good, but most of then need already a
little fix digikam do neatly and on the spot

my main concern about digikam are the unreliability of tag
editing (I have lost too many times my comments and gave up
on tagging).

it lacks also a real save/restore to disk (cd/dvd) utility.
I mean a way to keep the database and the images in sync
between several installs (save on 10.0, restore on 10.2,
with may be different folders). May be it would be better to
have the data in the same folder than images (may be only on
backups). I also lose data this way.

of course the better way should be to have data stored IN
the image, but this seems to be unlikely

jdd

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[Duncan Hill-5]

> it lacks also a real save/restore to disk (cd/dvd) utility.
> I mean a way to keep the database and the images in sync
> between several installs (save on 10.0, restore on 10.2,
> with may be different folders). May be it would be better to
> have the data in the same folder than images (may be only on
> backups). I also lose data this way.

There are tools for doing backups that do them very well.  The beauty of
the Unix philosophy of tools is to have a tool that does a job, and does
it well.  Multi-purpose tools are all well and good, but normally cannot
match a dedicated tool for the same purpose.  What digiKam should
possibly do is make it easy to use those dedicated tools to do their job.

> of course the better way should be to have data stored IN
> the image, but this seems to be unlikely

There was at least one poster in the past few weeks who was absolutely
horrified at the concept of changing ANY data in the image, including
meta-data.  Your better way is his worst way :)

The benefit of the sqlite database file is that you have on central
location to easily store and retrieve the information.  This also makes
it faster than scanning 8000 photos to find all photos matching
'london'.  The benefit of a standardised image meta-data is of course
that any other application (if it knows the standard) could read the
information without needing the sqlite DB.  Pros and cons for each approach.
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Dnia sob gru 16 2006, Duncan Hill napisał:
> The benefit of the sqlite database file is that you have on central
> location to easily store and retrieve the information.  This also makes
> it faster than scanning 8000 photos to find all photos matching
> 'london'.  The benefit of a standardised image meta-data is of course
> that any other application (if it knows the standard) could read the
> information without needing the sqlite DB.  Pros and cons for each
> approach. _______________________________________________

That is true. But images themselves don't have to be in one folder...
This *is* major limitations. For example I'd like to have possibility to
edit tags for images already backup on CD/DVD. I think Amarok is near
perfection when dealing with collections. Of course this is about music,
not images but all are files :)

BTW - I was looking for photo management app for work (Windows) and I've
found something really close to nirvana: IMatch
- http://www.photools.com .

One word about panels. I like panels but current organisation has many
limits - especially on space, also reading of vertical text has its
drawbacks. Maybe for 1.0 Digikam could adapt KPDF solution? In that way
you could put much more panels on one side.

m.

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[Gilles Caulier-2]

Le samedi 16 décembre 2006 14:14, Mikolaj Machowski a écrit :
> One word about panels. I like panels but current organisation has many
> limits - especially on space, also reading of vertical text has its
> drawbacks. Maybe for 1.0 Digikam could adapt KPDF solution? In that way
> you could put much more panels on one side.

I know the kpdf widget used to display content. This one is already used in
digiKam in camera gui sidebar and CM image plugin settings.

I will certainly try to use it in Comments & tags sidebar to separate digiKam
tags view of others widgets without created a new sidebar pannel on the right
of album gui.

What do you think about. It simple to implemente, and will give more space for
displaying/using digiKam tags.

I know the Tags workflow problem in digiKam, especially when you have a huge
tags hierarchy. This will be another main task todo after 0.9.0.

Gilles
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[Gilles Caulier-2]

Le samedi 16 décembre 2006 13:29, jdd a écrit :
> it lacks also a real save/restore to disk (cd/dvd) utility.
> I mean a way to keep the database and the images in sync
> between several installs (save on 10.0, restore on 10.2,
> with may be different folders). May be it would be better to
> have the data in the same folder than images (may be only on
> backups). I also lose data this way.

Yes, i know this problem too. We will working on later than database will be
evoluted, especially to store new metadata like GPS, photograph info, MD5
sum, etc.

Gilles
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Duncan Hill a écrit :

> There are tools for doing backups that do them very well.

the problem is backing up the data base in the way they
don't lose track of images. this is very difficult to acheive.

> The benefit of the sqlite database file is that you have on central
> location to easily store and retrieve the information.

and the need of yet another database engine...

   This also makes
> it faster than scanning 8000 photos to find all photos matching
> 'london'.

there is no "london" in any photo if you don't key it in
yourself

I use digikam for more than a year now and have already lost
my datas 2 or three time :-((

tagging and commenting the images is extremely tedious and
making this more than once is more than I can support :-(

jdd


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>From: jdd <[hidden email]>

>Reply-To: digiKam - Digital Photo Management for the masses
><[hidden email]>
>To: digiKam - Digital Photo Management for the masses
><[hidden email]>
>Subject: Re: [Digikam-users] Review of Digikam
>Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 15:08:06 +0100
>
>Duncan Hill a écrit :
>
> > There are tools for doing backups that do them very well.
>
>the problem is backing up the data base in the way they
>don't lose track of images. this is very difficult to acheive.
>
> > The benefit of the sqlite database file is that you have on central
> > location to easily store and retrieve the information.
>
>and the need of yet another database engine...
>
>    This also makes
> > it faster than scanning 8000 photos to find all photos matching
> > 'london'.
>
>there is no "london" in any photo if you don't key it in
>yourself
>
>I use digikam for more than a year now and have already lost
>my datas 2 or three time :-((
>
>tagging and commenting the images is extremely tedious and
>making this more than once is more than I can support :-(
>
>jdd

This would be nice:

"album auto tag" option:

[x]  automatically add album tags
        [x]   inherit tags from parent album

especially when downloading from camera

so that you assign tags to an album and they are automatically assigned to
images imported to that album, IF you chose to do so on the import.

I don't see it in BKO, can some one verify?

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[Marcel Wiesweg]

> Just saw this negative review of Digikam:
> http://applications.linux.com/applications/06/12/06/158220.shtml?tid=13&tid
>=39&tid=47


"In the negative column, DigiKam forces you to copy all of your digital photos
into a separate directory in order to work with them....It ought to be
optional."

This is a valid point. I think we will improve this at some point in the
future.

"In addition, the app forces you to import your pictures into an album --
pictures cannot exist as standalone entities in your library, which restricts
your organizational choices."

A file lives in a directory, and an album is a directory, so every file is in
an "album" already.
You need subdirectories and a album path, that belongs to the point above.


"DigiKam is supposed to support reading (not editing) of Exif tags, although
it routinely fails for me, regardless of which camera I import from."

Not valid for 0.9 series. But it shows a problem with the review: The author
does not say which version he is testing.

"Sideways-oriented tabs change the mode of the app, window panes appear and
disappear in response to other operations"

???

"and the menu structure is disheveled, with operations spread out over nine
top-level menus in the image browser and nine other top-level menus in the
single-image window -- including some repeats. "

Menu structure is a controversial issue, a different opinion expected. And I
don't say we have no problems there.

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[Chris Green]

On Sat, Dec 16, 2006 at 04:34:50PM +0100, Marcel Wiesweg wrote:

> > Just saw this negative review of Digikam:
> > http://applications.linux.com/applications/06/12/06/158220.shtml?tid=13&tid
> >=39&tid=47
>
>
> "In the negative column, DigiKam forces you to copy all of your digital photos
> into a separate directory in order to work with them....It ought to be
> optional."
>
> This is a valid point. I think we will improve this at some point in the
> future.
>
> "In addition, the app forces you to import your pictures into an album --
> pictures cannot exist as standalone entities in your library, which restricts
> your organizational choices."
>
> A file lives in a directory, and an album is a directory, so every file is in
> an "album" already.
> You need subdirectories and a album path, that belongs to the point above.
>

For me this is one of Digikams major *advantages*, I want to be able
to organise and manage my pictures with the OS tools as well as with
the applications tools.

Doing a major re-arrangement of the hierarchy of a collection of
pictures is much easier (for me anyway) using the OS and a real
hierarchy of directories.

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[David Aldred-2]

On Saturday 16 December 2006 12:46, Duncan Hill wrote:

(quoting jdd)
> > of course the better way should be to have data stored IN
> > the image, but this seems to be unlikely
>
> There was at least one poster in the past few weeks who was absolutely
> horrified at the concept of changing ANY data in the image, including
> meta-data.  Your better way is his worst way :)

It might be good to have this as an option, though, if it's practicable.

Me: I'd rather have the data in the image file - that way I only lose the data
if I lose the picture file (by which time it's too late to matter!).  

That doesn't stop the data also being in a sqlite database for speed and ease
of access, but it does mean the loss of the database doesn't involve the loss
of all my additional information.   (It would also then need a function to
re-read the image files and recreate the database in case of disaster).

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Marcel Wiesweg a écrit :

>> Just saw this negative review of Digikam:
>> http://applications.linux.com/applications/06/12/06/158220.shtml?tid=13&tid
>> =39&tid=47
>
>
> "In the negative column, DigiKam forces you to copy all of your digital photos
> into a separate directory in order to work with them....It ought to be
> optional."
>
> This is a valid point. I think we will improve this at some point in the
> future.

working in the original directory is extremely dangerous.
one need absolutely have several copies of his files anyway,
so this is a feature, not a drawback!

> Menu structure is a controversial issue, a different opinion expected. And I
> don't say we have no problems there.

could be made editable...

jdd

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[Gilles Caulier-2]

On Saturday 16 December 2006 19:12, jdd wrote:
> > Menu structure is a controversial issue, a different opinion expected.
> > And I don't say we have no problems there.
>
> could be made editable...

About Thumbnails pop-up menu, there is a whish in B.K.O...

Gilles
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I agree that digiKam has a lot of nice features, but i wouldn't say
that the criticism of the review is totally unfair. The menu structure
is not only confusing but also not helpfull productivity wise. In
another thread I've commented on this, but from my point of view an
approach similar to what was taken with Adobe Lightroom would improve
a lot the the workflow in digiKam. Digging in menus for the right
action to use is not only tedious but also has the problem that some
of the menu items are not intituive.. it doesn't make sense to no
being able to change the IPTC or the EXIF directly in the tabs of the
image editor.. it's not even intuitive that you need to do that in the
editor of the gallery and only through a menu. F-spot seems to go into
a better approach on this, but it lacks a lot of the functionality
that digiKam provides.
IMHO digiKam could become a great program if the user interface
improves a lot, because almoust all the needed functionality is
already there.

Best regards
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[Gilles Caulier-2]

Le Jeudi 21 Décembre 2006 18:00, Gonçalo Valverde a écrit :

> I agree that digiKam has a lot of nice features, but i wouldn't say
> that the criticism of the review is totally unfair. The menu structure
> is not only confusing but also not helpfull productivity wise. In
> another thread I've commented on this, but from my point of view an
> approach similar to what was taken with Adobe Lightroom would improve
> a lot the the workflow in digiKam. Digging in menus for the right
> action to use is not only tedious but also has the problem that some
> of the menu items are not intituive.. it doesn't make sense to no
> being able to change the IPTC or the EXIF directly in the tabs of the
> image editor.. it's not even intuitive that you need to do that in the
> editor of the gallery and only through a menu. F-spot seems to go into
> a better approach on this, but it lacks a lot of the functionality
> that digiKam provides.
> IMHO digiKam could become a great program if the user interface
> improves a lot, because almoust all the needed functionality is
> already there.
>
> Best regards

Sure, i understand the menu problem, but the _review_ is not a _REAL_ review.
Where are _all_ features of compared programs ? Where are DigikamImagePlugins
and kipi-plugins tests ?

Also, are you any idea of time witch we have work onto 0.9.0 release ? How
many code lines we have written to finalize this release ? How many English
word we have written/read through Mailing-list and KDE bugzilla ?

Personally, i'm working around 2, 3, or 4 hours _by day_. It very hard to
following all way given by users... This is why we need to take priority for
new implementations/improvements

...and unforget than digiKam is an opensource software, not a comercial
software !

No blame here for you, but i trying to explain exactly why i tired and i hate
to read a very uncomplete review like this...

Gilles

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Hi Caulier.

I understand that digiKam is an Open Source effort and that it's not a
commercial application. Please don't take this as a personal
criticism, and like i said digiKam provides a lot of interesting
functionality. But being an Open Source effort doesn't mean that user
experience should be something less important than functionality, and
if I understood correctly the main drivers of the Appeal project, the
user experience is on the core of KDE4.

I'm for the Free Software movement (and I also help to promote it),
but one thing that we must never forget is that if we want to make
people use the software it must be appealing (pun not intended :) ) to
them. This is not made as a criticism to the developers which did a
great job at the program, just the feedback of a long time Open Source
software user (I've been using Linux for at least 13 years). KDE (and
GNOME) was a major step into wide acceptance of Linux and Open Source
into the destkop because it improved the user experience. digiKam
which is already a great application could have a bigger acceptance if
the workflow is easier and more intuitive to use. I know that I'm
spoiled for having tried Adobe Lightroom and Picasa, but to be honest
it was due to the easiness of their user interface that i've started
to do some photo processing.. I've always stayed as far as I could of
it using GIMP or Photoshop because it was not worth the time spent on
it. And I've only started using digiKam after using Lightroom and
Picasa because I wanted to do the same thing in Linux. I've tried
f-spot first, which has some nice ideas about the user interface but
like i said before it lacks a lot in terms of functionality.

Best regards
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[Daniel Bauer-2]

On Thursday 21 December 2006 18:00, Gonçalo Valverde wrote:

> I agree that digiKam has a lot of nice features, but i wouldn't say
> that the criticism of the review is totally unfair. The menu structure
> is not only confusing but also not helpfull productivity wise. In
> another thread I've commented on this, but from my point of view an
> approach similar to what was taken with Adobe Lightroom would improve
> a lot the the workflow in digiKam. Digging in menus for the right
> action to use is not only tedious but also has the problem that some
> of the menu items are not intituive.. it doesn't make sense to no
> being able to change the IPTC or the EXIF directly in the tabs of the
> image editor.. it's not even intuitive that you need to do that in the
> editor of the gallery and only through a menu. F-spot seems to go into
> a better approach on this, but it lacks a lot of the functionality
> that digiKam provides.
> IMHO digiKam could become a great program if the user interface
> improves a lot, because almoust all the needed functionality is
> already there.
>
> Best regards

I work a lot with digiKam and (although one can always have wishes, of course)
I think the user interface is not sooo very bad. There are many things where
I have to click much less than I had to when I was using photoshop. I was
extremely used to photoshop over many years but since I use digiKam (and
UFraw, imageMagick, sometimes the Gimp) I am about twice as fast as I was
before - on the same machine.

As somebody else already stated in this room, the most important things are
finishing/debugging the productive tools. In this regard digiKam took huge
steps forward in the recent past. So I'd say, digiKam already *is* a great
program.

Nonetheless improvements are always possible. But I think it is not very
helpful to say: do it like Adobe does it.

First of all, Adobe isn't infallible, although they have great (and very
expensive!) apps, I agree. But if you say: "The menu structure is not only
confusing but also not helpfull productivity wise" then I must say: "Your
sentence is not helpful at all", because it says just nothing besides of the
fact that you don't like the menu structure.

Don't take this as a flame, please. I'd only wish that to criticise was
accompanied by clear proposals for improvements. Send your proposals to the
list to discuss them with others and then you can always place a wish on the
bugs page. Maybe others will vote for it. And maybe the digiKam developpers
like it and one day you have what you wish - for free!

Have a nice evening!

Daniel

b.t.w. I hope this text doesn't sound harsh - it's not ment to be. If it does,
then it's just because of my lack of better english knowledge...
--
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professional photography: http://www.daniel-bauer.com
Madagascar special: http://www.sanic.ch
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Hi Daniel.

Well, i don't think that Adobe is the know it all in terms of
usabillity and to be honest I never liked Adobe Photoshop.. way too
bloated and confusing. GIMP is a lot easier and more fun to use. But
the develop tool strip in Lightroom is quite a nice idea, and it does
help to have access to the functions to use. Since digiKam allready
use tabs, from my point of view it would make sense to have a tab with
all the available functions (or customizable by the user) instead of
having to dig in a lot of menus. IMMV, but from my point of view this
improves a lot the usability of the program.

I agree that finishing/debugging the productivity tools should be the
highest priority, but usability is also important. Perhaps setting a
different team of people to work on this. Being a crappy programmer
and without much time available perhaps I could help in somewhere
else. Like i said, i do like digiKam.. I just think that there things
that could be improved in order to make it a more interesting program.
For instance, IMHO the Amarok team did a great job on this, and it's a
program a lot better than the crappy windows media player or the even
worst iTunes.

Regards

PS: I know that this doesn't entitle me to special attention but only
now I've remember that I've donated money to the project some weeks
ago :). So actually I'm not expecting something for free :)
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