RAW workflow and tags

[Leonardo Giordani]

Hi all digiKam users,

first of all I wish to say that digiKam is a really good program that helps me
a lot in my photographic work.

I want to share with you the workflow I follow in managing my photos, to share
and discuss with you some thoughts about it and how digiKam can help us in
this.

Since I work with a digital reflex I'm mostly interested in the management of
the RAW conversions. Since I own many photos I'm interested also in tagging.
(I'm using digiKam 0.9x.)

My workflow by now is:

1 Download all RAW photos with digiKam in albums automatically named basing on
date
2 Delete very bad ones
3 Choose the best ones and copy them in another album
4 Process each chosen photo with UFRaw (creating a .ufraw file)
5 Batch processing .ufraw files (creating .tif file)
6 Process each TIFF with The Gimp (sharpening, saturation, crop, etc)
7 Batch converting .tif in .jpeg with digiKam
8 Tagging JPEG

Periodically I backup original RAW, chosen RAW with .ufraw and TIFFs on DVDs.

There are some point where I'm not at ease with this workflow: I just list
them, being conscious that probably that are a consequence of a wrong
approach of mine; but perhaps they expose issues that can be fixed in
digiKam.

For each photo I have a RAW file, a .ufraw, a TIFF file and a JPEG file.
Sometimes I have more than one TIFF per RAW, for example when there are
exposition issues (I develop a .hi.tif and a .lo.tif and then merge them with
The Gimp). Having all these files in the same directory/album is not good
because:

 * TIFF preview is slow (can be fixed by a powerful computer, but is always
much slower the JPEG or RAW preview)
 * Seeing the same photo in 3 versions is not useful
 * Multiple TIFFs can be named with various suffixes, which are not always
visible since some file names are truncated because of length (e.g.
20090503-101323-000059.cr2)
 * ufraw files are not understood by digiKam (it does not show them)

So one question is: would it be useful and possible (I'm going to ask
developers too) to embed a WORKFLOW in digiKam, so that I simply see one
object per photo, that object representing all files that belong to that
photo (i.e. RAW, TIFF, JPEG, .ufraw, .txt, etc)?

Tagging is also a problem: if I tag RAW photos than I have to tag TIFFs and
JPEGs again, with an high probabilty of forgetting tags (already happened
many times). Well, than it is really boring :)
By now I only tag JPEGs, but tagging RAWs and TIFFs is useful: sometimes I
have not the time of processing RAWs and when I am looking for a particular
subject I would see this RAW photos too. I solved this by using three tags
(RAW, TIFF and JPEG), but this is a nightmare since I must tag each photo
basing on the format, which means a lot of work and a lot of errors.

I think digiKam lacks a WORKFLOW view of its objects. For example: I cannot
simply click on a photo and see if I already converted it to TIFF (and with
which program) or I already processed it in a particular step (for example
sharpening). Moreover: I follow a certain workflow, others can have different
needs, so it could be interesting to be able to define a personal flow or set
of steps.

Another example: I cannot only view JPEGs of each objects (now I exploit this
by using three tags - JPEG, TIFF and RAW - but it is not the best solution).
Or for example I cannot simply list all photos that have not yet been
converted from RAW to TIFF to continue a previously stopped work.
Or what about a program that saves strange files to record what has been done
on an image: ufraw files are this, another program that can be mentioned is
hugin, which saves a file with the description of the paramentes used to
create an image.

I try to define more precisely my idea of assisted workflow:
I define a set of steps linking them with a particular digiKam action or an
external program:
 * "RAW->ufraw": ufraw <file.RAW>
 * "ufraw->TIFF": ufraw-batch *.ufraw
 * "TIFF processing": gimp <file.tif>
 * TIFF->JPEG: digiKam internal
Then I click on an image and a popup menu appears with only the first step
available; I select it and ufraw is run on the RAW image.

Well, sorry if my thoughts seems stange or stupid; I'm experiencing these
limitations in my work with digiKam (and other OS softwares) and since I
don't know if they are shared and solved by you I just tried to identify a
solution.

Thank you for your answers in advance

Leonardo Giordani

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On Monday 04 May 2009 16:57:49 Leonardo Giordani wrote:
> 1 Download all RAW photos with digiKam in albums automatically named basing
> on date
> 2 Delete very bad ones
> 3 Choose the best ones and copy them in another album
> 4 Process each chosen photo with UFRaw (creating a .ufraw file)

Maybe you could tell what you don't like in digiKam RAW importer - and fill
bugs/wishes on BKO :)

> 5 Batch processing .ufraw files (creating .tif file)
> 6 Process each TIFF with The Gimp (sharpening, saturation, crop, etc)

Sharpening and saturation also can be done with digiKam. Crop is more
complicated. While tool for aspect ratio crop in digiKam is great, simple crop
is awkward comparing to GIMP.

> 7 Batch converting .tif in .jpeg with digiKam
> 8 Tagging JPEG
>
> Periodically I backup original RAW, chosen RAW with .ufraw and TIFFs on
> DVDs.
>
> There are some point where I'm not at ease with this workflow: I just list
> them, being conscious that probably that are a consequence of a wrong
> approach of mine; but perhaps they expose issues that can be fixed in
> digiKam.
>
> For each photo I have a RAW file, a .ufraw, a TIFF file and a JPEG file.
> Sometimes I have more than one TIFF per RAW, for example when there are
> exposition issues (I develop a .hi.tif and a .lo.tif and then merge them
> with The Gimp). Having all these files in the same directory/album is not
> good because:
>
>  * TIFF preview is slow (can be fixed by a powerful computer, but is always
> much slower the JPEG or RAW preview)
>  * Seeing the same photo in 3 versions is not useful
>  * Multiple TIFFs can be named with various suffixes, which are not always
> visible since some file names are truncated because of length (e.g.
> 20090503-101323-000059.cr2)
>  * ufraw files are not understood by digiKam (it does not show them)

You can add .ufraw extension in list of recognized extensions in digiKam
configuration but results can be strange. Keep backup copies :)
>
> So one question is: would it be useful and possible (I'm going to ask
> developers too) to embed a WORKFLOW in digiKam, so that I simply see one
> object per photo, that object representing all files that belong to that
> photo (i.e. RAW, TIFF, JPEG, .ufraw, .txt, etc)?
>
It is in todo list.

> Tagging is also a problem: if I tag RAW photos than I have to tag TIFFs and
> JPEGs again, with an high probabilty of forgetting tags (already happened
> many times). Well, than it is really boring :)
> By now I only tag JPEGs, but tagging RAWs and TIFFs is useful: sometimes I
> have not the time of processing RAWs and when I am looking for a particular
> subject I would see this RAW photos too. I solved this by using three tags
> (RAW, TIFF and JPEG), but this is a nightmare since I must tag each photo
> basing on the format, which means a lot of work and a lot of errors.

digiKam 0.10 + exiv 0.18.1 support tagging of RAW and TIFF files.

>
> I think digiKam lacks a WORKFLOW view of its objects. For example: I cannot
> simply click on a photo and see if I already converted it to TIFF (and with
> which program) or I already processed it in a particular step (for example
> sharpening). Moreover: I follow a certain workflow, others can have
> different needs, so it could be interesting to be able to define a personal
> flow or set of steps.
>
> Another example: I cannot only view JPEGs of each objects (now I exploit
> this by using three tags - JPEG, TIFF and RAW - but it is not the best
> solution).

In latest version of digiKam there is at the bottom very convenient filter for
MIME types. This will not replace stacks of images but you can easily switch
between viewing RAW, TIFF, or JPEG files.

> Or for example I cannot simply list all photos that have not yet
> been converted from RAW to TIFF to continue a previously stopped work.
> Or what about a program that saves strange files to record what has been
> done on an image: ufraw files are this, another program that can be
> mentioned is hugin, which saves a file with the description of the
> paramentes used to create an image.

It is in todo-list.

> I try to define more precisely my idea of assisted workflow:
> I define a set of steps linking them with a particular digiKam action or an
> external program:
>  * "RAW->ufraw": ufraw <file.RAW>
>  * "ufraw->TIFF": ufraw-batch *.ufraw
>  * "TIFF processing": gimp <file.tif>
>  * TIFF->JPEG: digiKam internal
> Then I click on an image and a popup menu appears with only the first step
> available; I select it and ufraw is run on the RAW image.

Some part should be doable with incoming 0.11 and Batch Queue Manager.

> Well, sorry if my thoughts seems stange or stupid; I'm experiencing these
> limitations in my work with digiKam (and other OS softwares) and since I
> don't know if they are shared and solved by you I just tried to identify a
> solution.

I think that sharing of workflows is very good thing. Of course not everything
can be included in one application but with enough data it is possible for
developers to recognize common needs.

m.
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[Leonardo Giordani]

Thank you for your fast answer!
I'll try as soon as possible the latest digiKam following your advices and
then I'll post a reply on the single subjects.

Thank you again

Leonardo

--
Leonardo Giordani

Tele-Rilevamento Europa - T.R.E. s.r.l.
Sensing the planet
Via Vittoria Colonna, 7
20149 Milano - Italia
tel.: [phone]
fax: [phone]
e-mail: leonardo.giordani (at) treuropa.com
web: www.treuropa.com

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[david-vj]

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[Leonardo Giordani]

Ok, I moved to digiKam for RAW processing.

It works, but:

1. I cannot see the live effet of a parameter change as in RAWstudio or UFraw
2. There is no histogram
3. It could be useful to add a color picker (to check white, for example)
4. There is no way to see what parameters are applied by "Automatic White
Balance": since sometimes I would only correct it, it could be useful to
perform automatic WB and than change to Manual while keeping the parameters
used for the Automatic. Same for Camera and D65 WB.
5. Preview of RAW conversion should be done in the marvellous two-face way as
any other image tool in digiKam, to enable the user to compare between the
RAW shot and the converted one.

I think they are probably  already been added in 0.10.x: where can I check
todo lists or detailed features of 0.10.x? (Waiting to migrate...)

Apart from this RAW processing in digiKam works very well! Thank you for
addessing me.

Another question:

I always considered 5 star classification as unuseful, but in the manual it is
exemplified as a way to distinguish between good shots and bad shots (ok, it
is straightforward, but it didn't occoured to me...). Do you use it that way?
How? I mean, do effetively rate your images with 5 levels or there is someone
that uses only a good/bad rating?

And moreover, what do you rate? RAW? TIFF?

I would like to understand more about this Batch Queue Manager  
Mikolaj Machowski waht talking about in his first answer: where can I find
info about it? Just to avoid asking for features that are already
developed...

Thank you very much

Leonardo


--
Leonardo Giordani

Tele-Rilevamento Europa - T.R.E. s.r.l.
Sensing the planet
Via Vittoria Colonna, 7
20149 Milano - Italia
tel.: [phone]
fax: [phone]
e-mail: leonardo.giordani (at) treuropa.com
web: www.treuropa.com

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[Gilles Caulier-4]

2009/5/8 Leonardo Giordani <[hidden email]>:
> Ok, I moved to digiKam for RAW processing.
>
> It works, but:
>
> 1. I cannot see the live effet of a parameter change as in RAWstudio or UFraw

Really ? do you use Raw Import tool (look editor settings)

> 2. There is no histogram

Really ? histogram is _everywhere_ in digiKam. Please post somewhere a
screenshot to see how you process your raw file.

> 3. It could be useful to add a color picker (to check white, for example)

yes, there is in WB tool.

> 4. There is no way to see what parameters are applied by "Automatic White

no. this is missing in libraw... Can be improved... I cc alex.

> Balance": since sometimes I would only correct it, it could be useful to
> perform automatic WB and than change to Manual while keeping the parameters
> used for the Automatic. Same for Camera and D65 WB.

...

> 5. Preview of RAW conversion should be done in the marvellous two-face way as
> any other image tool in digiKam, to enable the user to compare between the
> RAW shot and the converted one.

Can be done. Add an entry in bugzilla.

>
> I think they are probably  already been added in 0.10.x: where can I check
> todo lists or detailed features of 0.10.x? (Waiting to migrate...)
>
> Apart from this RAW processing in digiKam works very well! Thank you for
> addessing me.
>

Thanks

> Another question:
>
> I always considered 5 star classification as unuseful, but in the manual it is
> exemplified as a way to distinguish between good shots and bad shots (ok, it
> is straightforward, but it didn't occoured to me...). Do you use it that way?
> How? I mean, do effetively rate your images with 5 levels or there is someone
> that uses only a good/bad rating?

For me 5 start is to identify shot to print.

>
> And moreover, what do you rate? RAW? TIFF?

all. We don't care as all can be rated (:=)))

>
> I would like to understand more about this Batch Queue Manager
> Mikolaj Machowski waht talking about in his first answer: where can I find
> info about it? Just to avoid asking for features that are already
> developed...

Look digikam web site :

http://www.digikam.org/node/427

Gilles Caulier
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[Leonardo Giordani]

> > 1. I cannot see the live effet of a parameter change as in RAWstudio or
> > UFraw
>
> Really ? do you use Raw Import tool (look editor settings)
>
> > 2. There is no histogram
>
> Really ? histogram is _everywhere_ in digiKam. Please post somewhere a
> screenshot to see how you process your raw file.

I forgot to say I'm using digiKam 0.9.3... probably you (correctly) refer to a
newer version.

I currently use Tool->Raw Image Converter on an image to find the correct
parameters, than select all (similar) images and switch to Batch->Batch Raw
Converter and apply the parameters to them.

> > 3. It could be useful to add a color picker (to check white, for example)
>
> yes, there is in WB tool.

I meant in the Raw Image Converter, to help finding correct WB parameters.

> > 5. Preview of RAW conversion should be done in the marvellous two-face
> > way as any other image tool in digiKam, to enable the user to compare
> > between the RAW shot and the converted one.
>
> Can be done. Add an entry in bugzilla.

Ok

> Look digikam web site :
>
> http://www.digikam.org/node/427

Thank you very much

Leonardo


--
Leonardo Giordani

Tele-Rilevamento Europa - T.R.E. s.r.l.
Sensing the planet
Via Vittoria Colonna, 7
20149 Milano - Italia
tel.: [phone]
fax: [phone]
e-mail: leonardo.giordani (at) treuropa.com
web: www.treuropa.com

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[Gilles Caulier-4]

2009/5/8 Leonardo Giordani <[hidden email]>:

>> > 1. I cannot see the live effet of a parameter change as in RAWstudio or
>> > UFraw
>>
>> Really ? do you use Raw Import tool (look editor settings)
>>
>> > 2. There is no histogram
>>
>> Really ? histogram is _everywhere_ in digiKam. Please post somewhere a
>> screenshot to see how you process your raw file.
>
> I forgot to say I'm using digiKam 0.9.3... probably you (correctly) refer to a
> newer version.
>

Ok, now i understand. At least update to last stable KDE3 release
0.9.5 where i have impleemnted RAw Import tool.

Of course with KDE4 release 0.10.0, Raw Import exist (:=)))

But if you want to still under KDE3, 0.9.5 is fine.

More info : http://www.digikam.org/node/432

> I currently use Tool->Raw Image Converter on an image to find the correct
> parameters, than select all (similar) images and switch to Batch->Batch Raw
> Converter and apply the parameters to them.

Forget it (-:)

Gilles

>
>> > 3. It could be useful to add a color picker (to check white, for example)
>>
>> yes, there is in WB tool.
>
> I meant in the Raw Image Converter, to help finding correct WB parameters.
>
>> > 5. Preview of RAW conversion should be done in the marvellous two-face
>> > way as any other image tool in digiKam, to enable the user to compare
>> > between the RAW shot and the converted one.
>>
>> Can be done. Add an entry in bugzilla.
>
> Ok
>
>> Look digikam web site :
>>
>> http://www.digikam.org/node/427
>
> Thank you very much
>
> Leonardo
>
>
> --
> Leonardo Giordani
>
> Tele-Rilevamento Europa - T.R.E. s.r.l.
> Sensing the planet
> Via Vittoria Colonna, 7
> 20149 Milano - Italia
> tel.: [phone]
> fax: [phone]
> e-mail: leonardo.giordani (at) treuropa.com
> web: www.treuropa.com
>
> _______________________________________________
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>

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[Gilles Caulier-4]

2009/5/8 Alex Tutubalin <[hidden email]>:

>
>>> 4. There is no way to see what parameters are applied by "Automatic White
>>>
>>
>> no. this is missing in libraw... Can be improved... I cc alex.
>>
>
> This is NOT missing.
>
> Camera multipliers (in terms of per-channel coefficients) are in
>  LibRaw.imgdata.color.cam_mul array

Alex,

I think leoardo want mean the White Balance value in °C used automatically...

Gilles
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[Leonardo Giordani]

> 2009/5/8 Alex Tutubalin <[hidden email]>:
> >>> 4. There is no way to see what parameters are applied by "Automatic
> >>> White
> >>
> >> no. this is missing in libraw... Can be improved... I cc alex.
> >
> > This is NOT missing.
> >
> > Camera multipliers (in terms of per-channel coefficients) are in
> >  LibRaw.imgdata.color.cam_mul array
>
> Alex,
>
> I think leoardo want mean the White Balance value in °C used
> automatically...

Sorry. I mean: when I select Automatic White Balance it sets Temperature (K)
and a Green values, just like I could do manually, but automatically :) ; I
would like to select Automatic WB, then switch to Manual WB and see the
values of the parametes it selected to obtain its result.

Thanks

--
Leonardo Giordani

Tele-Rilevamento Europa - T.R.E. s.r.l.
Sensing the planet
Via Vittoria Colonna, 7
20149 Milano - Italia
tel.: [phone]
fax: [phone]
e-mail: leonardo.giordani (at) treuropa.com
web: www.treuropa.com

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On Friday 08 May 2009 10:33:25 Gilles Caulier wrote:
> 2009/5/8 Leonardo Giordani <[hidden email]>:
> > Ok, I moved to digiKam for RAW processing.
> >
> > It works, but:
> >
> > 1. I cannot see the live effet of a parameter change as in RAWstudio or
> > UFraw
>
> Really ? do you use Raw Import tool (look editor settings)

While 0.10+ import is much improved there is still need to "reimport" photo
after some updates which is unnecessary in apps like RawTherapee.

> > 3. It could be useful to add a color picker (to check white, for example)
>
> yes, there is in WB tool.

But there is no colorpicker in raw import tool like in WB plugin. You have to
use sliders to get color balance.

> > Another question:
> >
> > I always considered 5 star classification as unuseful, but in the manual
> > it is exemplified as a way to distinguish between good shots and bad
> > shots (ok, it is straightforward, but it didn't occoured to me...). Do
> > you use it that way? How? I mean, do effetively rate your images with 5
> > levels or there is someone that uses only a good/bad rating?
>
> For me 5 start is to identify shot to print.

I use stars to rate quality of photos or personal preferences. For workflow I
use tags.

m.
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[Leonardo Giordani]

Ok, I'm lost.

I just upgraded to digiKam 0.10.0 (Kubuntu 9.04).

Where is RAW converter? I found a RAW->DNG converter and a batch RAW
converter, but how can I just open a single RAW image to find out the correct
WB and green values to apply with the batch converter?

Thanks

Leonardo


--
Leonardo Giordani

Tele-Rilevamento Europa - T.R.E. s.r.l.
Sensing the planet
Via Vittoria Colonna, 7
20149 Milano - Italia
tel.: [phone]
fax: [phone]
e-mail: leonardo.giordani (at) treuropa.com
web: www.treuropa.com


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[Gilles Caulier-4]

2009/5/12 Leonardo Giordani <[hidden email]>:

> Ok, I'm lost.
>
> I just upgraded to digiKam 0.10.0 (Kubuntu 9.04).
>
> Where is RAW converter? I found a RAW->DNG converter and a batch RAW
> converter, but how can I just open a single RAW image to find out the correct
> WB and green values to apply with the batch converter?
>
> Thanks
>
> Leonardo

install kipi-plugins pakage 0.2.0 (0.3.0 released today)

Better : you can open RAW in editor using RAW Import tool. all
settings are there with preview. Just set on right option from Editor
settings page.

Gilles Caulier
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[Leonardo Giordani]

> Better : you can open RAW in editor using RAW Import tool. all
> settings are there with preview. Just set on right option from Editor
> settings page.

Thanks, I just found it. Too simple... :)

--
Leonardo Giordani

Tele-Rilevamento Europa - T.R.E. s.r.l.
Sensing the planet
Via Vittoria Colonna, 7
20149 Milano - Italia
tel.: [phone]
fax: [phone]
e-mail: leonardo.giordani (at) treuropa.com
web: www.treuropa.com


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[Leonardo Giordani]

> Better : you can open RAW in editor using RAW Import tool. all
> settings are there with preview. Just set on right option from Editor
> settings page.

Well, the Editor is really impressive, complete and with live preview.
With it my results are outstanding. Thanks developers!

But once I found the correct paramenters with the Editor I open the batch
converter and it is really different (just like the 0.9.x one).

a. It does not retain the parameters as set in the Editor. In 0.9 I could open
one of my images, set the WB etc and then open the batch converter and have
the same paramenters automatically applied.

b. Parameters have not the same meaning or effect. For example Editor's
Exposure value is not present in batch converter; there is a Brightness
control, but it has not the same effect (I can post images if it is not clear).

Should Batch Queue Manager fix this?

How do you manage RAW? Do you convert all them to DNG? And then do you convert
them with Batch Converter? And how do you find the correct parameters?

Thank you for the patience with a novice...

Leonardo




--
Leonardo Giordani

Tele-Rilevamento Europa - T.R.E. s.r.l.
Sensing the planet
Via Vittoria Colonna, 7
20149 Milano - Italia
tel.: [phone]
fax: [phone]
e-mail: leonardo.giordani (at) treuropa.com
web: www.treuropa.com


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[Gilles Caulier-4]

2009/5/12 Leonardo Giordani <[hidden email]>:

>> Better : you can open RAW in editor using RAW Import tool. all
>> settings are there with preview. Just set on right option from Editor
>> settings page.
>
> Well, the Editor is really impressive, complete and with live preview.
> With it my results are outstanding. Thanks developers!
>
> But once I found the correct paramenters with the Editor I open the batch
> converter and it is really different (just like the 0.9.x one).
>
> a. It does not retain the parameters as set in the Editor. In 0.9 I could open
> one of my images, set the WB etc and then open the batch converter and have
> the same paramenters automatically applied.
>
> b. Parameters have not the same meaning or effect. For example Editor's
> Exposure value is not present in batch converter; there is a Brightness
> control, but it has not the same effect (I can post images if it is not clear).
>
> Should Batch Queue Manager fix this?

Yes and not. BQM will use common Raw decoding settings from digiKam setup.

Post processing come from editor core. It's not yet shared, but will
do it later.


Batch Raw Converter is a kipi-plugins. It don't use digiKam core. It's
a separated tool. With BQM, it become obsolete, but still available...

If you want to test BQM, welcome... checkout code from svn (0.11.0
release, compile and install)

>
> How do you manage RAW? Do you convert all them to DNG?

Not yet for me. I convert RAW to PNG (all metadata preserved), in 16
bits color depth demosaiced of course using editor. I never store JPG
on my computer . JPEG is lossy compression format. It's dedicated to
web publishing. When PNG are ready to post, i run BQM, and i will take
a coffee..

> And then do you convert
> them with Batch Converter? And how do you find the correct parameters?

In general, few settings , needs to be adjusted, especially in post
processing. I always use 16 bits color depth of course (8 bits is a
non sence for me, else use JPEG instead), AHD interpolation (the
best), and sometime, i use NR wavelets correction (take a while, but
very good results)

I don't use Color management.

Raw import tool remember settings between session.

In the future, tools settings will be shared between editor and BQM,
but it's require a lots of code move for that. Not yet done.

>
> Thank you for the patience with a novice...
>

De nada..

Gilles Caulier
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