Non-destructive image editing

[Jean-Michel Pouré-4]

Dear friends,

At Kdenlive.org, we are still very impressed by showfo quality. We would
like a solution that would allow to use showfo in conjunction with MLT.

We thought of a feature that may interest you:
non-destructive photo correction

In video, Kdenlive works as such :
* The source video is left unchanged.
* During video editing, Kdenlive processes the video using the MLT
syntax. The film is previewed without modifying the source.
* Video is exported only during final rendering.

One drawback of image manipulation programs like Gimp or Showfoto is
that they modify the original image.

Of course, you can duplicate images but it is a loss of space.

So the idea is to ask MLT to process photos.

The beauty is it would possible, in theory to store MLT processing
syntax in PNG tags. This would make a completely non-destructive
solution.

Only when exporting to third-party on-line solutions or DVDs the photos
would be processed. But the source would remain.

MLT is very reliable and quite easy to implement. You would only need to
implement plugins in MLT and load your effects. Then modify showfoto to
use MLT. It would require layers to showfoto. But it is probably a
needed feature.

What do you think of this solution? To have a view, you can install
Kdenlive 0.7.5 from Debian SID and try to process an image with effects.

Kind regards,
Jean-Michel

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[Gilles Caulier-4]

Le 15 juillet 2009 13:44, Jean-Michel Pouré<[hidden email]> a écrit :
> Dear friends,
>
> At Kdenlive.org, we are still very impressed by showfo quality.

Thanks.

> We would
> like a solution that would allow to use showfo in conjunction with MLT.
>
> We thought of a feature that may interest you:
> non-destructive photo correction
>
> In video, Kdenlive works as such :
> * The source video is left unchanged.
> * During video editing, Kdenlive processes the video using the MLT
> syntax. The film is previewed without modifying the source.
> * Video is exported only during final rendering.
>

This also done like this in digiKam. Image is loaded in memory and
each action on image is stored in queue of ONG files as cache. Until
end, original is not touched, if you overwrite original of course.

But in photo management, this is not non-destructive photo editing exactly...


> One drawback of image manipulation programs like Gimp or Showfoto is
> that they modify the original image.

Until you s

>
> Of course, you can duplicate images but it is a loss of space.
>
> So the idea is to ask MLT to process photos.
>
> The beauty is it would possible, in theory to store MLT processing
> syntax in PNG tags. This would make a completely non-destructive
> solution.
>
> Only when exporting to third-party on-line solutions or DVDs the photos
> would be processed. But the source would remain.
>
> MLT is very reliable and quite easy to implement. You would only need to
> implement plugins in MLT and load your effects. Then modify showfoto to
> use MLT. It would require layers to showfoto. But it is probably a
> needed feature.
>
> What do you think of this solution? To have a view, you can install
> Kdenlive 0.7.5 from Debian SID and try to process an image with effects.
>
> Kind regards,
> Jean-Michel
>
> _______________________________________________
> Digikam-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/digikam-devel
>

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[Gilles Caulier-4]

2009/7/17 Gilles Caulier <[hidden email]>:

> Le 15 juillet 2009 13:44, Jean-Michel Pouré<[hidden email]> a écrit :
>> Dear friends,
>>
>> At Kdenlive.org, we are still very impressed by showfo quality.
>
> Thanks.
>
>> We would
>> like a solution that would allow to use showfo in conjunction with MLT.
>>
>> We thought of a feature that may interest you:
>> non-destructive photo correction
>>
>> In video, Kdenlive works as such :
>> * The source video is left unchanged.
>> * During video editing, Kdenlive processes the video using the MLT
>> syntax. The film is previewed without modifying the source.
>> * Video is exported only during final rendering.
>>
>
> This also done like this in digiKam. Image is loaded in memory and
> each action on image is stored in queue of ONG files as cache. Until
> end, original is not touched, if you overwrite original of course.
>
> But in photo management, this is not non-destructive photo editing exactly...
>
>
>> One drawback of image manipulation programs like Gimp or Showfoto is
>> that they modify the original image.
>

Until you save image no.

There is 2 way to apply non-destructive photo editing :

1 save resulting images in a queue of tmp file (PNG is the best
format) and register this queue to database .In digiKam GUI, use can
see a preview of each version and choose the right in workflow.
Problem is space consuming, but it's fast.

2 register in database and in image metadata (XMP media management
namespace) all actions in editor (Actions List). When image is save,
only list is recorded : in this case space is preserved, but time to
restore image can be long because we need to replay all registered
actions in editor.

There is 2 bugzilla entries about these subjects :

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=142056

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=125387

>>
>> Of course, you can duplicate images but it is a loss of space.
>>
>> So the idea is to ask MLT to process photos.

We have already a dedicated framework in digiKam named DImg...

>>
>> The beauty is it would possible, in theory to store MLT processing
>> syntax in PNG tags. This would make a completely non-destructive
>> solution.

Use XMP MM namespace. No need to re-invent the wheel. PNG support
metadata. Look Exiv2 project for details...

>>
>> Only when exporting to third-party on-line solutions or DVDs the photos
>> would be processed. But the source would remain.
>>
>> MLT is very reliable and quite easy to implement. You would only need to
>> implement plugins in MLT and load your effects. Then modify showfoto to
>> use MLT. It would require layers to showfoto. But it is probably a
>> needed feature.

This require to break a lots of parts in digiKam. We will never do it
(:=)))). It's a lots of work, and regression test to do.

Best

Gilles Caulier
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On Friday 17 July 2009 07:48:03 Gilles Caulier wrote:
> There is 2 way to apply non-destructive photo editing :
>
> 1 save resulting images in a queue of tmp file (PNG is the best
> format) and register this queue to database .In digiKam GUI, use can
> see a preview of each version and choose the right in workflow.
> Problem is space consuming, but it's fast.

Even with modern storage space it may be too space consuming. This feature
will be needed mostly for advanced amateurs up which use dSLR cameras with big
pixel count and RAW format, resulting in big TIFF/PNG files.

Yesterday I got 60 MB 16-bit PNG from 6Mpx camera - and 6Mpx is small by today
standards. Before printing I rotated it, corrected distorsion, cropped, small
curves correction and again rotated to fit on page for printing. I have
original after developing from RAW + 5 versions = 6 images -> ca. 330 MB for
one image if storing all versions (6*60 - x for cropped version).

Of course digiKam could go for overkill - advanced history management: store
all versions on disk for current work, clean them (all or selected) when fast
access to intermediate steps isn't necessary, etc.

> 2 register in database and in image metadata (XMP media management
> namespace) all actions in editor (Actions List). When image is save,
> only list is recorded : in this case space is preserved, but time to
> restore image can be long because we need to replay all registered
> actions in editor.

To makes things faster you could store on disk original and last version of
image. This way you can immediately load current version of image (which
really 90% of users only need) and recreate with processing any step between.

Also digiKam could store JPG (or PGF) thumbnails of all versions between for
quick visual navigation in image history. Note that those "thumbnails" doesn't
have to be small in dimensions just compressed. Load 1:1 JPG/PGF copy of image
and process "real" PNG in background.

m.
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On Friday 17 July 2009 07:48:03 Gilles Caulier wrote:

> 2009/7/17 Gilles Caulier <[hidden email]>:
> > Le 15 juillet 2009 13:44, Jean-Michel Pouré<[hidden email]> a écrit :
> >> Dear friends,
> >>
> >> At Kdenlive.org, we are still very impressed by showfo quality.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> >> We would
> >> like a solution that would allow to use showfo in conjunction with MLT.
> >>
> >> We thought of a feature that may interest you:
> >> non-destructive photo correction
> >>
> >> In video, Kdenlive works as such :
> >> * The source video is left unchanged.
> >> * During video editing, Kdenlive processes the video using the MLT
> >> syntax. The film is previewed without modifying the source.
> >> * Video is exported only during final rendering.
> >
> > This also done like this in digiKam. Image is loaded in memory and
> > each action on image is stored in queue of ONG files as cache. Until
> > end, original is not touched, if you overwrite original of course.
> >
> > But in photo management, this is not non-destructive photo editing
> > exactly...
> >
> >> One drawback of image manipulation programs like Gimp or Showfoto is
> >> that they modify the original image.
>
> Until you save image no.
>
> There is 2 way to apply non-destructive photo editing :
>
> 1 save resulting images in a queue of tmp file (PNG is the best
> format) and register this queue to database .In digiKam GUI, use can
> see a preview of each version and choose the right in workflow.
> Problem is space consuming, but it's fast.
>
> 2 register in database and in image metadata (XMP media management
> namespace) all actions in editor (Actions List). When image is save,
> only list is recorded : in this case space is preserved, but time to
> restore image can be long because we need to replay all registered
> actions in editor.
>
> There is 2 bugzilla entries about these subjects :
>
> https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=142056
>
> https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=125387
>
> >> Of course, you can duplicate images but it is a loss of space.
> >>
> >> So the idea is to ask MLT to process photos.
>
> We have already a dedicated framework in digiKam named DImg...
>
> >> The beauty is it would possible, in theory to store MLT processing
> >> syntax in PNG tags. This would make a completely non-destructive
> >> solution.
>
> Use XMP MM namespace. No need to re-invent the wheel. PNG support
> metadata. Look Exiv2 project for details...
>
> >> Only when exporting to third-party on-line solutions or DVDs the photos
> >> would be processed. But the source would remain.
> >>
> >> MLT is very reliable and quite easy to implement. You would only need to
> >> implement plugins in MLT and load your effects. Then modify showfoto to
> >> use MLT. It would require layers to showfoto. But it is probably a
> >> needed feature.
>
> This require to break a lots of parts in digiKam. We will never do it
> (:=)))). It's a lots of work, and regression test to do.

I would even say it will break everything :-)

Andi

>
> Best
>
> Gilles Caulier
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/digikam-devel

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On Friday 17 July 2009 09:27:43 Mikolaj Machowski wrote:

> On Friday 17 July 2009 07:48:03 Gilles Caulier wrote:
> > There is 2 way to apply non-destructive photo editing :
> >
> > 1 save resulting images in a queue of tmp file (PNG is the best
> > format) and register this queue to database .In digiKam GUI, use can
> > see a preview of each version and choose the right in workflow.
> > Problem is space consuming, but it's fast.
>
> Even with modern storage space it may be too space consuming. This feature
> will be needed mostly for advanced amateurs up which use dSLR cameras with
> big pixel count and RAW format, resulting in big TIFF/PNG files.

And PNG takes ages to save (especially in digiKam, though I don't understand
why, Gimp is much faster), so restoring the workflow will be quite fast, but
saving will take forever (like applying an action list would do, to).

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