LCD for photos

Hello,

My old CRT is failing :(

Time to buy new monitor.

What LCD you use and could recommend?

Unfortunately I have rather limited resources. Cheap 19" PVA (some BenQ
model) is top possibility. Are TN models really so bad for colors?

TIA

m.

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[Gilles Caulier-4]

At home and in my office i'm using a LG flatron 15S (19''). It's not expensive...

In my office, this flat screen is now a standard. We have built around 50 flat screens to change old CRT (scientific job : matlab with complex graph etc...) All is perfect.

The screen is given with a CD including ICC profiles witch are compatible with digiKam. Photo color are perfect for me.

Note : I have never tested a calib. screen device to compute real ICC profile. Perhaps later...

Gilles

2007/4/11, Mikolaj Machowski <[hidden email]>:

Hello,

My old CRT is failing :(

Time to buy new monitor.

What LCD you use and could recommend?

Unfortunately I have rather limited resources. Cheap 19" PVA (some BenQ
model) is top possibility. Are TN models really so bad for colors?

TIA

m.

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[Arnd Baecker]

On Wed, 11 Apr 2007, Gilles Caulier wrote:

[...]
> The screen is given with a CD including ICC profiles witch are compatible
> with digiKam. Photo color are perfect for me.

Hmm, but if one changes brightness etc., doesn't this
mean one gets maybe a different gamma?
(this question might just show off my non-knowledge
on ICC profiles and monitor calibration ...)

> Note : I have never tested a calib. screen device to compute real ICC
> profile. Perhaps later...

The problem is that none of the cheaper
calibrators is supported under linux
(the spyder hack reverse engineering effort
did not yet succeed: http://yan-ke.com/spyder/)
Only Xrite DTP-94 and Xrite DTP-92
together with the Argyll Color Management System
seem to provide a 100% linux solution...

It seems that currently ``many`` people calibrate
under Windows (on a dual-boot machine) and use
the profile under linux,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_color_management

Best,

Arnd
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I think the problem with the "cheap" LCDs is that the color of the
picture showed on the LCD changes with the angle from where you watch
the screen. If you move your head up-down, left-right you will see that
the color is not "constant". Of course I think for most of the people it
is not a problem. But when you want to work with your photos a bit more
professional way (either because it is required, or just your level of
standard is higher) this "effect" is not really desirable.
I am still using my Eizo CRT, and the next LCD I would buy is the Eizo
ColorEdge CG19. But unfortunately that is not the cheap category (more
than 1000 euro).

Regards,
Gabor


Gilles Caulier wrote:

> At home and in my office i'm using a LG flatron 15S (19''). It's not
> expensive...
>
> In my office, this flat screen is now a standard. We have built around
> 50 flat screens to change old CRT (scientific job : matlab with
> complex graph etc...) All is perfect.
>
> The screen is given with a CD including ICC profiles witch are
> compatible with digiKam. Photo color are perfect for me.
>
> Note : I have never tested a calib. screen device to compute real ICC
> profile. Perhaps later...
>
> Gilles
>
> 2007/4/11, Mikolaj Machowski <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>:
>
>     Hello,
>
>     My old CRT is failing :(
>
>     Time to buy new monitor.
>
>     What LCD you use and could recommend?
>
>     Unfortunately I have rather limited resources. Cheap 19" PVA (some
>     BenQ
>     model) is top possibility. Are TN models really so bad for colors?
>
>     TIA
>
>     m.
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Digikam-users mailing list
>     [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/digikam-users
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
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[Gerhard Kulzer]

Am Wednesday 11 April 2007 schrieb Mikolaj Machowski:

> Hello,
>
> My old CRT is failing :(
>
> Time to buy new monitor.
>
> What LCD you use and could recommend?
>
> Unfortunately I have rather limited resources. Cheap 19" PVA (some BenQ
> model) is top possibility. Are TN models really so bad for colors?
>
> TIA

Just read a review on LCDs for photographs in the 'Chasseurs d'images'

magazine. They say the requirements are very different from bureau or gaming
screens (we need no speed and no wrong contrast, no lateral angle, but we
need large gamut, good vertical angle, color temperature, gamma, uniformity
over screen).
In the affordable range there's Samsung Syncmaster 205BW 1680*1050 that can be
had for 230Euros. Next best is ViewSonic VG1930wm and Eizo Flexscan 1901, all
at about the same price tag.

Personally I have a Belinea 1020, 20" 1600*1200, and I'm very happy with it.
But before summer I will switch for a 30" cinerama model, and for someone
like you I would sell it really low price (but the postage could be
expensive?)

Gerhard


--
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http://www.gerhard.fr

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Dnia piątek 13 kwiecień 2007, Gerhard Kulzer napisał:
> In the affordable range there's Samsung Syncmaster 205BW 1680*1050 that
> can be had for 230Euros. Next best is ViewSonic VG1930wm and Eizo
> Flexscan 1901, all at about the same price tag.

Thanks. Interesting (and heartening) results. All are on TN matrix which
means it is not so bad as some say.
>
> Personally I have a Belinea 1020, 20" 1600*1200, and I'm very happy with
> it. But before summer I will switch for a 30" cinerama model, and for
> someone like you I would sell it really low price (but the postage could
> be expensive?)

Prohibitive.

Thanks to all and I hope this slightly off-topic thread will help others
:)

m.

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[Dotan Cohen]

On 14/04/07, Mikolaj Machowski <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Dnia piątek 13 kwiecień 2007, Gerhard Kulzer napisał:
> > In the affordable range there's Samsung Syncmaster 205BW 1680*1050 that
> > can be had for 230Euros. Next best is ViewSonic VG1930wm and Eizo
> > Flexscan 1901, all at about the same price tag.
>
> Thanks. Interesting (and heartening) results. All are on TN matrix which
> means it is not so bad as some say.
> >
> > Personally I have a Belinea 1020, 20" 1600*1200, and I'm very happy with
> > it. But before summer I will switch for a 30" cinerama model, and for
> > someone like you I would sell it really low price (but the postage could
> > be expensive?)
>
> Prohibitive.
>
> Thanks to all and I hope this slightly off-topic thread will help others
> :)
>
> m.
>

I took a USB drive with some photos to Bug, a local computer chain.
The only CRT they had, a Viewpro 20" made much better pictures than
even their most expensive LCD. That convinced me: I'll save some money
and trade desktop space for a CRT when I next buy. The current LCD's
are good compared to the old, but CRT's are still much better for
photos.

Note, for reading text I do prefer my laptops LCD to the desktop's
CRT. But for photos it won't do.

Dotan Cohen

http://chat-message-boards.com
http://what-is-what.com/what_is/computer.html
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[Daniel Bauer-2]

On Montag, 16. April 2007, Dotan Cohen wrote:

> I took a USB drive with some photos to Bug, a local computer chain.
> The only CRT they had, a Viewpro 20" made much better pictures than
> even their most expensive LCD. That convinced me: I'll save some money
> and trade desktop space for a CRT when I next buy. The current LCD's
> are good compared to the old, but CRT's are still much better for
> photos.
>
> Note, for reading text I do prefer my laptops LCD to the desktop's
> CRT. But for photos it won't do.
>
> Dotan Cohen

This is somehow true and somehow not... There are quite cheap CRTs giving good
color quality, but there are also CRTs showing such disgusting results that
even the cheapest LCD is better. On the other hand there are LCDs having such
a restricted viewing angle that you would have to fix your head with screws
to always look on the screen from the exact same angle...

There are now professional high-end LCDs available that can be calibrated
perfectly, but they are at the same prices as the CRTs were, when there still
were CRTs :-)  

(3-5000 Swiss Francs... look here
http://www.lb-ag.ch/news/digital/Quato/ip230E/index.html )

If you don't want (or like me: can't) afford such a piece of excellence you
must simply go and look at the available monitors. Take a CD with you with a
color chart and a photo you know how it should look and let the seller
display it. Move it to all the edges and positions of the screen (you will
wonder how much difference there can be depending on the position on the
screen...). Try it with different ambient light (in different shops...).

I think technology goes on so very fast and brands change their suppliers
(where they buy the LCD or CRT etc.) so often that in the "economy class" you
can't rely on infos that are not absolutely up-to-date (if monitor A was ways
better than monitor B 3 month ago, it can absolutely be vice-versa right now
and change to the contrary in short again...).

As you will have to look at your screen (hopefully) for years, I think its
worthwhile to take your time and look around personally and carefully...

Good luck!

Daniel
--
Daniel Bauer photographer Basel Switzerland
professional photography: http://www.daniel-bauer.com
Madagascar special: http://www.sanic.ch
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[Gilles Caulier-4]

2007/4/16, Daniel Bauer <[hidden email]>:

On Montag, 16. April 2007, Dotan Cohen wrote:

> I took a USB drive with some photos to Bug, a local computer chain.
> The only CRT they had, a Viewpro 20" made much better pictures than
> even their most expensive LCD. That convinced me: I'll save some money
> and trade desktop space for a CRT when I next buy. The current LCD's
> are good compared to the old, but CRT's are still much better for
> photos.
>
> Note, for reading text I do prefer my laptops LCD to the desktop's
> CRT. But for photos it won't do.
>
> Dotan Cohen

This is somehow true and somehow not... There are quite cheap CRTs giving good
color quality, but there are also CRTs showing such disgusting results that
even the cheapest LCD is better. On the other hand there are LCDs having such
a restricted viewing angle that you would have to fix your head with screws
to always look on the screen from the exact same angle...

There are now professional high-end LCDs available that can be calibrated
perfectly, but they are at the same prices as the CRTs were, when there still
were CRTs :-)

(3-5000 Swiss Francs... look here
http://www.lb-ag.ch/news/digital/Quato/ip230E/index.html )

If you don't want (or like me: can't) afford such a piece of excellence you
must simply go and look at the available monitors. Take a CD with you with a
color chart and a photo you know how it should look and let the seller
display it. Move it to all the edges and positions of the screen (you will
wonder how much difference there can be depending on the position on the
screen...). Try it with different ambient light (in different shops...).

I think technology goes on so very fast and brands change their suppliers
(where they buy the LCD or CRT etc.) so often that in the "economy class" you
can't rely on infos that are not absolutely up-to-date (if monitor A was ways
better than monitor B 3 month ago, it can absolutely be vice-versa right now
and change to the contrary in short again...).

As you will have to look at your screen (hopefully) for years, I think its
worthwhile to take your time and look around personally and carefully...

Good luck!

Daniel

Remember than CRT will be an obsolete technology in a near future. All screens production will be remplaced by LCD.

The problem of screen with photo is to have the most large gamut to render properlly all colors from images. Its exactly the same problem with TV LCD screen. With some movies, you can see than the high color are overburned. This give a poor color quality rendering.

The next generation of LCD will provide better gamut than current LCD. Promise technology are LED-LCD for example (named SED in the past by Sony, now renamed FED).

http://www.computerpoweruser.com/articles/archive/c0505/26c05/26c05.pdf

The advantage of computer between TV stuff is to have Color Management rule to adapt automaticly the image color to the screen gamut.

If you want the better render of colors on your screen, calibrate your screen under Win32, get the ICC color profile generated, and set digiKam to use it like Monitor color profile in Color Management setup. Of course, you need to buy a color calibration device for that.

Gilles




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Daniel Bauer wrote:

> There are now professional high-end LCDs available that can be calibrated
> perfectly, but they are at the same prices as the CRTs were, when there still
> were CRTs :-)  

the fact is nobody want any more CRT, but the ggod thing is that
excellent (professional) CRT are now very cheap, second hand :-). My
Sony 20SFII was 80 euros one year ago, probably less now, and it's
_very_ good

jdd

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Lucien Dodin, inventeur
http://lucien.dodin.net/index.shtml
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Does this really work?  I have never tried it because I figured that
there would be too many differences from one OS to the next.  Say you
get the ICC profile under Windows.  You now boot Linux and try to use
that profile.  The way an image is displayed could be very different.  
You are using video drivers that probably are made for a different OS
and may not even be from the video card's manufacturer.  Additionally,
the differing drivers may have different default parameters for display
properties.

As I said, I have never tried this method.  If anyone has had good luck,
I'd love to hear about it! :-)

Paul

Gilles Caulier wrote:
> If you want the better render of colors on your screen, calibrate your
> screen under Win32, get the ICC color profile generated, and set
> digiKam to use it like Monitor color profile in Color Management
> setup. Of course, you need to buy a color calibration device for that.
>
> Gilles

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[Arnd Baecker]

On Mon, 16 Apr 2007, Paul Waldo wrote:

> Does this really work?  I have never tried it because I figured that
> there would be too many differences from one OS to the next.  Say you
> get the ICC profile under Windows.  You now boot Linux and try to use
> that profile.  The way an image is displayed could be very different.
> You are using video drivers that probably are made for a different OS
> and may not even be from the video card's manufacturer.  Additionally,
> the differing drivers may have different default parameters for display
> properties.
>
> As I said, I have never tried this method.  If anyone has had good luck,
> I'd love to hear about it! :-)

It seems people use it (I haven't ...), see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_color_management

Another option is to hope for the spyder hack,
http://yan-ke.com/spyder/, to succeed in providing
linux support.

Best, Arnd
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[Nicolas Vilars]

Hi all,

As I said, I have never tried this method.  If anyone has had good luck,
I'd love to hear about it! :-)
    

It seems people use it (I haven't ...), see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_color_management

Another option is to hope for the spyder hack,
http://yan-ke.com/spyder/, to succeed in providing
linux support.
  

I did it and works great.

Did a couple of measurements back then, see the figures by yourself:
http://linux.vilars.com/dotclear/index.php?2006/10/21/4-are-loaded-profile-under-linux-as-accurate-as-in-windows


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[Gerhard Kulzer]

Am Monday 16 April 2007 schrieb Gilles Caulier:

>
> Remember than CRT will be an obsolete technology in a near future. All
> screens production will be remplaced by LCD.
>
> The problem of screen with photo is to have the most large gamut to render
> properlly all colors from images. Its exactly the same problem with TV LCD
> screen. With some movies, you can see than the high color are overburned.
> This give a poor color quality rendering.
>
> The next generation of LCD will provide better gamut than current LCD.
> Promise technology are LED-LCD for example (named SED in the past by Sony,
> now renamed FED).
>
> http://www.computerpoweruser.com/articles/archive/c0505/26c05/26c05.pdf
>
> The advantage of computer between TV stuff is to have Color Management rule
> to adapt automaticly the image color to the screen gamut.
>
> If you want the better render of colors on your screen, calibrate your
> screen under Win32, get the ICC color profile generated, and set digiKam to
> use it like Monitor color profile in Color Management setup. Of course, you
> need to buy a color calibration device for that.
>
> Gilles

For all Frenchies: it's worth while to buy the last 'Chasseur d'image'
magazine Nr.292. They cover everything in Colormanagement, LCD testing for
photographers, and selling pictures in France in the right portion of black
and white (not colors) money without being caught ;-)

Cheap calibration devices are Huey <90Euro and Spyder2express <100Euro

Gerhard

--
Hakuna matata
http://www.gerhard.fr

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Dnia poniedziałek 16 kwiecień 2007, Daniel Bauer napisał:
> I think technology goes on so very fast and brands change their
> suppliers (where they buy the LCD or CRT etc.) so often that in the
> "economy class" you can't rely on infos that are not absolutely
> up-to-date (if monitor A was ways better than monitor B 3 month ago, it
> can absolutely be vice-versa right now and change to the contrary in
> short again...).

Especially as some producers are waiting few months to get good reviews
and are placing worse matrices in the same model.

m.

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[Dotan Cohen]

On 16/04/07, Mikolaj Machowski <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Dnia poniedziałek 16 kwiecień 2007, Daniel Bauer napisał:
> > I think technology goes on so very fast and brands change their
> > suppliers (where they buy the LCD or CRT etc.) so often that in the
> > "economy class" you can't rely on infos that are not absolutely
> > up-to-date (if monitor A was ways better than monitor B 3 month ago, it
> > can absolutely be vice-versa right now and change to the contrary in
> > short again...).
>
> Especially as some producers are waiting few months to get good reviews
> and are placing worse matrices in the same model.
>

Nothing like a good conspiracy theory!

Dotan Cohen

http://lyricslist.com/
http://what-is-what.com/
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Dnia poniedziałek 16 kwiecień 2007, Dotan Cohen napisał:

> On 16/04/07, Mikolaj Machowski <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Dnia poniedziałek 16 kwiecień 2007, Daniel Bauer napisał:
> > > I think technology goes on so very fast and brands change their
> > > suppliers (where they buy the LCD or CRT etc.) so often that in the
> > > "economy class" you can't rely on infos that are not absolutely
> > > up-to-date (if monitor A was ways better than monitor B 3 month ago,
> > > it can absolutely be vice-versa right now and change to the contrary
> > > in short again...).
> >
> > Especially as some producers are waiting few months to get good
> > reviews and are placing worse matrices in the same model.
>
> Nothing like a good conspiracy theory!

Check history of Fujitsu Siemens P19-2.

m.

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>From: "Dotan Cohen" <[hidden email]>
>Reply-To: digiKam - Digital Photo Management for the masses
><[hidden email]>
>To: "digiKam - Digital Photo Management for the masses"
><[hidden email]>
>Subject: Re: [Digikam-users] LCD for photos
>Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 17:53:31 +0200
>
>On 16/04/07, Mikolaj Machowski <[hidden email]> wrote:
[...]
> > Especially as some producers are waiting few months to get good reviews
> > and are placing worse matrices in the same model.
> >
>
>Nothing like a good conspiracy theory!
>
>Dotan Cohen

unfortunately, true.   Dell 2407WFP.

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