IPTC and tags, again... Questions to the team

[Daniel Bauer-2]

Hello digiKam team

During the discussions about tags and how to save them to IPTC keywords once
again I was thinking about the purpose and use of tags and IPTC keywords. I
have some questions to the digiKam team, but first let me explain my point of
view:

I think there are at least 2 different needs depending on what tags and
metadata should be used for. (I've pointed to this in the "saving tags and
rating into IPTC tags..."-thread march last year):

a) "home use" and needs of digiKam itself:

- digiKam itself needs tag trees to be saved in IPTC to be able to re-create
them in digiKam tags hierarchy in database.
- for "home use" you want to tag your pictures on topics to sort and quickly
find them again

I think this is very well implemented now and once its completely polished
these needs are met perfectly.

b) "professional use"

here tags and IPTC-keywords are two completely different things. To explain:

*tags* could be:
- work for customers -> company X -> job Y
- free work -> models -> Susi
(this is personal information to organize my archive, but nothing of it should
go into IPTC - like the real name of the model is important for me, but often
should not be published and may not appear in the image file)

while *keywords* could be:
- emotions -> love -> parent/child (I know "/" cant be in a keyword... :-) )
- people -> groups -> families
(this is "public data" that I want in IPTC)

My personal approach here is:

- use digiKam tags for the tags (leaving "Save image tags as 'Keywords' tag"
unchecked in Metadata settings), which suits perfect for this

- use the "edit IPTC Metadata" plugin for the IPTC keywords, which is good
right now for single entries, but not yet for setting metadata in many files
and also needs some other improvements in regard of using pre-defined word
lists for consistency of keywording etc.

My questions to the digiKam team right now are:

- what is your target audience (target user group)?
- if both groups ("home use" and "professional") are targeted, is there
already a concrete plan about future developments in this regard? If so, is
this plan public and can I find it somewhere?

(I have some ideas, but I don't want to make unnecessary noise by throwing in
thoughts about things that have already been discussed and decided by people
who know better than I do)

Let me know.

kind regards

Daniel
--
Daniel Bauer photographer Basel Switzerland
professional photography: http://www.daniel-bauer.com
Madagascar special: http://www.sanic.ch
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[Gilles Caulier-2]

On Wednesday 10 January 2007 13:01, Daniel Bauer wrote:

> Hello digiKam team
>
> During the discussions about tags and how to save them to IPTC keywords
> once again I was thinking about the purpose and use of tags and IPTC
> keywords. I have some questions to the digiKam team, but first let me
> explain my point of view:
>
> I think there are at least 2 different needs depending on what tags and
> metadata should be used for. (I've pointed to this in the "saving tags and
> rating into IPTC tags..."-thread march last year):
>
> a) "home use" and needs of digiKam itself:
>
> - digiKam itself needs tag trees to be saved in IPTC to be able to
> re-create them in digiKam tags hierarchy in database.
> - for "home use" you want to tag your pictures on topics to sort and
> quickly find them again
>
> I think this is very well implemented now and once its completely polished
> these needs are met perfectly.
>
> b) "professional use"
>
> here tags and IPTC-keywords are two completely different things. To
> explain:
>
> *tags* could be:
> - work for customers -> company X -> job Y
> - free work -> models -> Susi
> (this is personal information to organize my archive, but nothing of it
> should go into IPTC - like the real name of the model is important for me,
> but often should not be published and may not appear in the image file)
>
> while *keywords* could be:
> - emotions -> love -> parent/child (I know "/" cant be in a keyword... :-)
> ) - people -> groups -> families
> (this is "public data" that I want in IPTC)
>
> My personal approach here is:
>
> - use digiKam tags for the tags (leaving "Save image tags as 'Keywords'
> tag" unchecked in Metadata settings), which suits perfect for this
>
> - use the "edit IPTC Metadata" plugin for the IPTC keywords, which is good
> right now for single entries, but not yet for setting metadata in many
> files and also needs some other improvements in regard of using pre-defined
> word lists for consistency of keywording etc.
>
> My questions to the digiKam team right now are:
>
> - what is your target audience (target user group)?

Both

> - if both groups ("home use" and "professional") are targeted, is there
> already a concrete plan about future developments in this regard? If so, is
> this plan public and can I find it somewhere?

We have draft for future release where we post all important ideas todo. It in
digiKam wiki, shared between me and Marcel, but, there is no plan/idea about
the home rules of Tags->IPTC keywords

For informations, the current (and uncomplete) development draft is here :

http://wiki.kde.org/tiki-index.php?page=Digikam%20development%20discussion

>
> (I have some ideas, but I don't want to make unnecessary noise by throwing
> in thoughts about things that have already been discussed and decided by
> people who know better than I do)
>
> Let me know.

Well, the problem is to store in IPTC keywords the Tags _name_ and not the
Tags _path_. Right ?

For example :

City/Places/NotreDame ==> NotreDame

Ideas :

* Using IPTC "Supplemental Categories" to store Tags Names. There is no
limitation about how many Sup. Cat. can be stored in Pictures, but each field
is limited to 32 characters (this is a limitation of IPTC not digiKam).

Problem is than "Supplemental Categories" is depreciate on IPTC draftand is
not supported by next generation of IPTC draft used into XMP metadata
(Adobe). This point is important for the future.

* Using IPTC "Subjects" : This is another way to store Tags Names. There is no
limitation about how many Subject can be stored in Pictures, but each field
is limited to 236 characters (this is a limitation of IPTC not digiKam).

IPTC Subjects use a complex format. It's not a simple words to write like  
Keywords or supplemental Categories.

For more dtails, look page 31 of IPTC draft :

http://www.iptc.org/std/IIM/4.1/specification/IIMV4.1.pdf

* Using a dedicaced IPTC tags (there is 20 free for use IPTC tags normally). I
have never tried to use this way. It's normally depreciate to do it, for
compatibility issue between photo management program.

* Provide a new batch tool used to export pictures with the right Tags
information stored in IPTC keywords : the Tags Path _or_ the Tags Name.

Gilles





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[Daniel Bauer-2]

On Wednesday 10 January 2007 13:26, Gilles Caulier wrote:

> On Wednesday 10 January 2007 13:01, Daniel Bauer wrote:
> > I think there are at least 2 different needs depending on what tags and
> > metadata should be used for.
> >
> > a) "home use" and needs of digiKam itself:
> >
> > - digiKam itself needs tag trees to be saved in IPTC to be able to
> > re-create them in digiKam tags hierarchy in database.
> > - for "home use" you want to tag your pictures on topics to sort and
> > quickly find them again
> >
> > I think this is very well implemented now and once its completely
> > polished these needs are met perfectly.
> >
> > b) "professional use"
> >
> > here tags and IPTC-keywords are two completely different things. To
> > explain:
> >
> > *tags* could be:
> > - work for customers -> company X -> job Y
> > - free work -> models -> Susi
> > (this is personal information to organize my archive, but nothing of it
> > should go into IPTC - like the real name of the model is important for
> > me, but often should not be published and may not appear in the image
> > file)
> >
> > while *keywords* could be:
> > - emotions -> love -> parent/child (I know "/" cant be in a keyword...
> > :-) ) - people -> groups -> families
> > (this is "public data" that I want in IPTC)
> >
> > My personal approach here is:
> >
> > - use digiKam tags for the tags (leaving "Save image tags as 'Keywords'
> > tag" unchecked in Metadata settings), which suits perfect for this
> >
> > - use the "edit IPTC Metadata" plugin for the IPTC keywords, which is
> > good right now for single entries, but not yet for setting metadata in
> > many files and also needs some other improvements in regard of using
> > pre-defined word lists for consistency of keywording etc.
> >
> > My questions to the digiKam team right now are:
> >
> > - what is your target audience (target user group)?
>
> Both
>
> > - if both groups ("home use" and "professional") are targeted, is there
> > already a concrete plan about future developments in this regard? If so,
> > is this plan public and can I find it somewhere?
>
> We have draft for future release where we post all important ideas todo. It
> in digiKam wiki, shared between me and Marcel, but, there is no plan/idea
> about the home rules of Tags->IPTC keywords
>
> For informations, the current (and uncomplete) development draft is here :
>
> http://wiki.kde.org/tiki-index.php?page=Digikam%20development%20discussion

wow, never ending work for the team :-)

> > (I have some ideas, but I don't want to make unnecessary noise by
> > throwing in thoughts about things that have already been discussed and
> > decided by people who know better than I do)
> >
> > Let me know.
>
> Well, the problem is to store in IPTC keywords the Tags _name_ and not the
> Tags _path_. Right ?
>
> For example :
>
> City/Places/NotreDame ==> NotreDame

This is one thing, and I know some users would prefer that (for flickr export
and the like). I personally don't really care, because I don't want my tags
in IPTC at all (I differ between tags and IPTC keywords). I just
enabled "save tags to IPTC" to contribute to the tests.

>
> Ideas :
>
> * Using IPTC "Supplemental Categories" to store Tags Names. There is no
> limitation about how many Sup. Cat. can be stored in Pictures, but each
> field is limited to 32 characters (this is a limitation of IPTC not
> digiKam).
>
> Problem is than "Supplemental Categories" is depreciate on IPTC draftand is
> not supported by next generation of IPTC draft used into XMP metadata
> (Adobe). This point is important for the future.
>
> * Using IPTC "Subjects" : This is another way to store Tags Names. There is
> no limitation about how many Subject can be stored in Pictures, but each
> field is limited to 236 characters (this is a limitation of IPTC not
> digiKam).
>
> IPTC Subjects use a complex format. It's not a simple words to write like
> Keywords or supplemental Categories.
>
> For more dtails, look page 31 of IPTC draft :
>
> http://www.iptc.org/std/IIM/4.1/specification/IIMV4.1.pdf
>
> * Using a dedicaced IPTC tags (there is 20 free for use IPTC tags
> normally). I have never tried to use this way. It's normally depreciate to
> do it, for compatibility issue between photo management program.

Of course I can't comment on technical stuff due to my lack of knowledge. I
think the tags part is good as it is. But I guess it could be an advantage
if "digiKam-own stuff" (like tags-hierarchy) would be saved in a place where
it doesn't interfere with "common stuff".

Then in your example for "City/Places/NotreDame"
"keywords" could be "NotreDame" and the path "City/Places/NotreDame" could be
saved in another place that other apps don't care about.
>
> * Provide a new batch tool used to export pictures with the right Tags
> information stored in IPTC keywords : the Tags Path _or_ the Tags Name.

This is also a good idea, if it's not too much work to implement and if it
doesn't evoke more problems with adaptation of the other components.

My idea is a bit different:

I think it is almost impossible to have all wishes fullfilled in one single
tool. Some want it simple and easy, others want it very powerful and with
every imaniganable option. So I would separate the methods from each other:

- consider "tags to IPTC" as "home user solution" (without meaning this
depreciatory at all), thus KISS. Each user can decide whether s/he wants to
use this "home user mode" and directly save their tags into IPTC or not via
digiKam settings.

- separate the "professional Metadata handling" from tagging and therefor
enhance your Metadata-Plugin for this purpose, so that it gets a powerful
full featured Metadata-Handler without disturbing those who just want to tag
their pictures for personal uses (again: not ment depreciatory).

With this approach the "tagging stuff" would practically be done. On the other
hand, professional Metadata handling could be swapped out into the plugin,
which can then develop (almost) independently from the rest of digiKam.

What do you think?

Daniel
--
Daniel Bauer photographer Basel Switzerland
professional photography: http://www.daniel-bauer.com
Madagascar special: http://www.sanic.ch
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On Wednesday 10. January 2007 13:01, Daniel Bauer wrote:

> *tags* could be:
> - work for customers -> company X -> job Y
> - free work -> models -> Susi
> (this is personal information to organize my archive, but nothing of it
> should go into IPTC - like the real name of the model is important for me,
> but often should not be published and may not appear in the image file)
>
> while *keywords* could be:
> - emotions -> love -> parent/child (I know "/" cant be in a keyword... :-)
> ) - people -> groups -> families
> (this is "public data" that I want in IPTC)

Could we have "Save image tags as Keywords" option per tag? That way you could
select which tags should be stored and synced with Keywords and which not (DB
only or some other field).

I would still like to have digikam DB fully recoverable from images itself,
therefore proposal from Gilles about using "Supplemental Categories" for full
tag hierarchy storage is actually not bad either.

Regards,
Luka
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Op woensdag 10 januari 2007 13:01, schreef Daniel Bauer:
  > - use the "edit IPTC Metadata" plugin for the IPTC keywords, which
  > is good right now for single entries, but not yet for setting
  > metadata in many files and also needs some other improvements in
  > regard of using pre-defined word lists for consistency of
  > keywording etc.
Op woensdag 10 januari 2007 16:02, schreef Daniel Bauer:
  > With this approach the "tagging stuff" would practically be done.
  > On the other hand, professional Metadata handling could be swapped
  > out into the plugin, which can then develop (almost) independently
  > from the rest of digiKam.


And if this is applicable through a sidebar on selected files (single or
multi), that would be great.
Furthermore I would like to propose the possibility of using the
IPTC-scene -genre and -subjectcodes with the predefined lists suggested
by Daniel.


Caspar.
--
If you want to make enemies, try to change something. --Woodrow Wilson
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Hi.

I understand the need for being able to recreate the tag hierarchy in
digiKam based solely on the image information.
Nevertheless using the IPTC keywords to save the whole path doesn't
seem to be the best approach not only because the user could be
interested in using the image with other applications but also because
he could be interested in providing the image file to other people
that would be using different programs. Interoperability and not
trying to tie the user to a program is one of the great strengths of
the Free Software philosophy and that's why I prefer to use it instead
of going to other solutions (like the Mac one where usability
sometimes is better but you're tied to what Apple wants).

Best regards
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[Daniel Bauer-2]

On Thursday 11 January 2007 11:24, Gonçalo Valverde wrote:

> Hi.
>
> I understand the need for being able to recreate the tag hierarchy in
> digiKam based solely on the image information.
> Nevertheless using the IPTC keywords to save the whole path doesn't
> seem to be the best approach not only because the user could be
> interested in using the image with other applications but also because
> he could be interested in providing the image file to other people
> that would be using different programs. Interoperability and not
> trying to tie the user to a program is one of the great strengths of
> the Free Software philosophy and that's why I prefer to use it instead
> of going to other solutions (like the Mac one where usability
> sometimes is better but you're tied to what Apple wants).
>
> Best regards

This is what I ment when I wrote that it could be an advantage
if "digiKam-own stuff" (like tags-hierarchy) would be saved in a place where
it doesn't interfere with "common stuff".

But I still think it's a good idea if "real IPTC keywording" could be swapped
out to the plugin (maybe even accessible as a side bar in a later stage, as
suggested by Caspar).

I just read in a bug from a user who owns countles pictures of birds but of
course doesn't want to have a tag for each kind of bird. Also for him it
would be an advantage to have the possibility to sperate tags from IPTC
keywords. He could use tags like "mybirds->summer2006" (or whatever suits
him) and then have a predefined keywords-list containing all his birds
correct names in the plugin that places it to the IPTC keywords.

Well, I have some ideas in regard of this plugin, but first wait for the
digiKam team to know what they basically think about using two different
approaches (tags side bar <-> metadata plugin) as suggested in my first mail.

Daniel
--
Daniel Bauer photographer Basel Switzerland
professional photography: http://www.daniel-bauer.com
Madagascar special: http://www.sanic.ch
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Dnia czw sty 11 2007, Luka Renko napisał:
>
> Could we have "Save image tags as Keywords" option per tag? That way you
> could select which tags should be stored and synced with Keywords and
> which not (DB only or some other field).

I would vote for something like this. Don't use option "store tags as
keywords" but make this setting per tag: private tag which will be
stored only in Digikam database and public tag which will be stored in
IPTC/XMP keywords.

IMO one additional feature would be essential: specialized option of file
export with possibility to transport even private tags between trusted
Digikam computers. Option of export could be protected with password and
after import of photos into another Digikam, private tags should be
removed from IPTC/XMP.

m.

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