[Digikam-devel] [Bug 139547] New: tag hierarchy automatic fill

[Gilles Caulier-2]

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------- Additional Comments From caulier.gilles kdemail net  2007-01-04 12:00 -------
Gerhard,

We talking about right side bar, especially the pop-up menu option from Tags treeview of Comment & Tags.

Gilles
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[Daniel Bauer-2]

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------- Additional Comments From linux daniel-bauer com  2007-01-04 12:11 -------
Hi Gerard,

This is true *within* digikam. But if you save the tags as keywords into the file, only "boy" is saved, not its parents (unless you also check the parents or use Gilles new menu option, of course).

So if you export the pictures into another app (could be at an image agency for example) that extracts the keywords from IPTC, they will not find your boy if they search for children.

Daniel
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[Jürgen Flosbach dk]

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------- Additional Comments From juergen.flosbach bigfoot com  2007-01-04 13:56 -------
And also
if I have picture of my boy and save that with the following tags
People > Children > Boys > MyBoy
  X         -        -       X

X = tag is set
- = tag is not set

In the left side tags list I select Children

 > You are right, here I see this picture.

But I have many pictures with Children. So I also use the
right side tags filter and select Boys.

Now the "MyBoy" pic is gone.

And anyway. If I have such a hierarchy I would expect it
to work like I asked for in my first posting. Because
MyBoy is a boy and is a child and is a person.

Juergen.
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[Daniel Bauer-2]

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------- Additional Comments From linux daniel-bauer com  2007-01-04 14:08 -------
Gilles,

I just had a look at the latest svn with the new tag menu entries. If I right-click on a child's text, then click select->parents, *only* the parents are selected, but not the child itself.

If I want to select the child and its parents I have to first click the child's box, then right-click in child's name to get the menu, then click select->parents.

If I right-click directly in the child's box, then its selection gets inverted as if I clicked normal (left) in the box. So, if I have already checked the child's box and want to have the parents checked too and right-click in the box (instead of the name), the child gets unchecked...

In order to reduce the amount of necessary clicks I'd suggest to change "select->parents" to "select->inclusive parents", so that the parents *and* the appropriate child get selected (similar in childs and deselect...).

What do you think?

Daniel
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[Guillaume Laurent]

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------- Additional Comments From glaurent telegraph-road org  2007-01-04 14:31 -------
Really no chance to get the same kind of simple, free-form tagging that flickr has (and just damn everybody else too) ? This tagging scheme is way too complex for its purpose.
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[Gilles Caulier-2]

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------- Additional Comments From caulier.gilles kdemail net  2007-01-04 14:32 -------
Daniel,

Try my alternative using commit # 619788 : always select/deselect the current item from the Tags treeview when Parents/Childs tags are selected/deselected by user

Gilles
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[Gilles Caulier-2]

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------- Additional Comments From caulier.gilles kdemail net  2007-01-04 14:41 -------
Laurent,

Flickr tagging stuff is another subject in other B.K.O file.

The Flickr tagging do not repect the tags hierarchy of digiKam. But Flickr tagging give a informations about the popularity of a tags. This is can be done in digiKam to show the number of images already tagged with a tag like this :

Travel
   \__City (5)
         \__Paris (25)
         \__ London (6)
  \__ Monuments

..But This is out of subject in this file. I will working on later at the right B.K.O file...

Gilles
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[Guillaume Laurent]

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------- Additional Comments From glaurent telegraph-road org  2007-01-04 15:07 -------
My prediction is that practically nobody will use tag hierarchies, it's just too much work to maintain, for very little gain. Look at gmail, or spotlight vs. directory hierarchies, or google vs. semantic web. People don't want to have to worry about how to retrieve their images, by doing hierarchy tagging you force them to do the computer's job.
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[Gilles Caulier-2]

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------- Additional Comments From caulier.gilles kdemail net  2007-01-04 15:14 -------
Laurent,

_Nobody_ will use Tags hierarchies... Really ???

I would to hear others guys about this subject (:=)))...

In all case, if_you_ don't care to have a Tags hierarchies in digiKam, you can tags your pictures in a flat way, without create tree...

Gilles
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[Daniel Bauer-2]

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------- Additional Comments From linux daniel-bauer com  2007-01-04 16:01 -------
glaurent:

tag-tree *is* important. Ask any image agency: there are a lot of people getting paid just for doing nothing else then indexing photo material according to common keyword trees, because this is exactly one of those rare things computers cannot do :-) . If digiKam wants to become a widly used tool also for professionals (and it definitively can!) then proper keyword handling is needed for sure. However: nobody is obliged to use tags at all.

If you point to google etc., I find it extremely annoying that google tries to think for me and does not let me search for what *I* want, even if I put it in quotes (search for "Fotograf" and you'll get all "Photographer" too, etc). As another example: the organization in Picasa is absolutely unusable, allthough it really looks extremely nice from design - but its a game, not a tool. Same for the "tags-clouds" in flickr etc.: really funny gadgets, nothing more.

Daniel
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[Daniel Bauer-2]

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------- Additional Comments From linux daniel-bauer com  2007-01-04 16:04 -------
Gilles,

latest svn from few minutes ago (don't know which number; don't know, how to find it :-) ) behaves just as I suggested above. In my opinion it's much better now.

Daniel
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[Gilles Caulier-2]

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------- Additional Comments From caulier.gilles kdemail net  2007-01-04 16:14 -------
Laurent,

Note than Daniel is pro-photographer : http://www.sanic.ch

Gilles
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[Guillaume Laurent]

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------- Additional Comments From glaurent telegraph-road org  2007-01-04 16:22 -------
> _Nobody_ will use Tags hierarchies... Really ???

Almost no non-geek user, yes. Perhaps a few geeks will, but it won't be long before they give up because it's basically boring grunt work, and the current state of the technology has already proven it's pointless. Who wants to maintain tags for thousands of photos ? And a hierarchy makes it even more fragile, suppose I decide I need to change it, how will digikam cope with that ? Will I have to re-tag all my pictures ? It's a huge can of worms.

Sorry, I really think this tagging scheme is a waste of your time. As you say, yes, I certainly won't use it (especially if there's a free-form tagging like with flickr - please don't force me to 'create tags', let me just type words in a lineedit).
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[Gilles Caulier-2]

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------- Additional Comments From caulier.gilles kdemail net  2007-01-04 16:37 -------
Daniel,

To finalize the implemention in Comments & Tags view, I propose to add a _settings_ option (not an action option) on the bottom of the pop-up menu, like "Matching Condition" work from the pop-up menu of Tags Filter View :

Toogle Settings
       \__[x]Parents
       \__[x]Childs
       \__[x]Both

For example, if you set on "Toogle Settings/Parents", when you Select/Deselect a tags form treeview, all parents tags will be automaticly Selected/Deselected... Smae way for ".../Childs"  option with childs tags. The ".../Both" option will Select/Deselect parents and childs at the same time.

Juergen, this is finaly what you want...

What do you think about ?

Gilles
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[Heiner Lamprecht]

On Thursday 04 January 2007 16:22, [hidden email]
wrote:
>
> > _Nobody_ will use Tags hierarchies... Really ???
>
> Almost no non-geek user, yes. Perhaps a few geeks will, but it
> won't be long before they give up because it's basically boring
> grunt work, and the current state of the technology has already
> proven it's pointless. Who wants to maintain tags for thousands
> of photos ?

Me !!!

And I think, even a lot of other people as well.

Okay, taking photographs is more fun than tagging them ;-)  But
trying to search for photos without a good tagging schema is hell.

> And a hierarchy makes it even more fragile, suppose I
> decide I need to change it, how will digikam cope with that ?
> Will I have to re-tag all my pictures ? It's a huge can of worms.

Honestly, I don't know.  I never tried to reorganize my tags so far.  
But I agree, that digikam should take fare of that.

> Sorry, I really think this tagging scheme is a waste of your
> time. As you say, yes, I certainly won't use it (especially if
> there's a free-form tagging like with flickr - please don't force
> me to 'create tags', let me just type words in a lineedit).

Ouh.  If you do it this way, then there is really a high risk for
having lots of similar tags for the same thing, because of
typos, ...

But to speed up tagging, it might be a good idea to save the last
five tags used.  Than it's easier to reuse tags while tagging all
images in an album.

An other possibility would be to add auto completion to the line
edit.  But this completion should search on the actual tag name,
not on the hierarchy.  Of course, the hierarchy shall be displayed.  
That would be similar to the searching field in the tag list, but
directly for entering/selecting tags.


    Heiner

--
    heiner at heiner-lamprecht dot net    GnuPG - Key: 9859E373
  Fingerprint:  3770 7947 F917 94EF 8717 BADB 0139 7554 9859 E373
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[Guillaume Laurent]

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------- Additional Comments From glaurent telegraph-road org  2007-01-04 16:41 -------
Daniel :

<<there are a lot of people getting paid just for doing nothing else then indexing photo material according to common keyword trees, because this is exactly one of those rare things computers cannot do :-)>>

That's precisely my point, who wants to do this kind of job all for himself ? :-) Well, if you really think that this kind of feature might be appealing to pros, ok, but AFAIC, I'll stick to a flickr-like scheme. It fits most "normal users" needs, hence why I think it's more worthy to work on.
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------- Additional Comments From mikmach wp pl  2007-01-04 17:50 -------
You have one good point: creation of new tags. The rest is... rather
funny. While I am not pro-photographer like Daniel I am
pro-photo-manager. We *could* live without hierarchical tags but
quality of this life would be really low.

m.
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[Daniel Bauer-2]

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------- Additional Comments From linux daniel-bauer com  2007-01-04 19:03 -------
Hi Gilles,

Your proposal in Comment #30 is the perfect solution (my opinion).

Laurent:

<<who wants to do this kind of job all for himself>> Well, sometimes it's not a question of "want to", but of "have to". Although (many) image agencies have specially trained stuff doing the indexing work, the chances to sell material to them are often better if the pictures are already properly "keyworded" (which is even more than keywords, in includes caption, location and so on...), simply because you save them time and money. Some agencies just take the pics, extract the embedded metadata into their database and let their customers search. Good keywords then are just as important as in google, where it makes no sence if your website occurs on bottom of page 2358...

to the discussion:

besides of no-tags, ad-hoc-tags and cloudy-tags there are two main possibilities for tagging (excuse me, if my english is not correct):

a) "controlled vocabulary": we use a list of once pre-defined keywords that we apply consistently. Here we save only keywords (not a tree), thus use it like the "normal" behaviour of digiKam: we select "boy" but not its parent-tags. However, we might like to have a hierarchy so we can find the appropriate keywords easier. We could use this manner e.g.:

-message/emotion
    -happiness
        -laughter
        -reunion
        -love
    -sadness
        -farewell
        -death
-occasions
    -chrismas
    -birthdays
    -marriage
-main colours of image
    -crazy colours
    -mild colours
    -reddish
    -blueish

Here we tag a picture like "love, mild colours".

b) "taxonomy": this means, we use a tree structure of keywords that becomes more specific as we go down the tree. This is the behaviour we can have from the left side bar or now with the new menu options by Gilles. This method allows us to work by refining the search in steps: people->children->boys->blondes. Of course here we must have the complete tree, because we also have "blondes" in "girls", "women", "men", "cigarettes" and we couldn't find the picture easily using only the last keyword.

So with the current implementation (Gilles Comment #30) I guess both ways are now possible in digiKam and everybody can do as s/he likes (and I didn't even have to wait till next Christmas :-).

Of course, "fun-tags" in a flickr-way can still be a wish, but I wouldn't mix it with "principal tagging thoughts" and put it in the "design/gadgets"-file.

Daniel
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[Jürgen Flosbach dk]

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------- Additional Comments From juergen.flosbach bigfoot com  2007-01-04 20:59 -------
Hi Gilles

Back to your comment #30. Yes, that is exactly what I
was looking for.
I wished for this feature because I started using the
hierarchical tagging feature already a while ago. I filled
all the parent tags by hand.
To me, that was the way where I felt that it was correct.
But yes, different people do different things to pictures
in different ways.
And that's exactly the advantage of digikam, that everyone
can manage his pictures in different ways so that it will
suit everyone.
You like no tags, then forget them.
You like a flat hierarchy, you can do that and digikam supports that.
You like the hierarchical tagging, you can/could do it already
 but now with the additional settings it supports it perfectly.

I have never before send anything to a list like this. So, how
would you handle the question whether or not to include this new
feature into digikam.
Do we vote for it in this forum or in the mailing list or how does
this work ?

Juergen
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[Marcel Wiesweg]

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------- Additional Comments From marcel.wiesweg gmx de  2007-01-04 23:23 -------
Old KDE rule:
He who writes the code decides.
;-)

And if there is a feature which some people would like to have, and others dont, but they are not obliged to use it nor touched in any way by its inclusion, and someone codes it, then it's there.
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