[Digikam-devel] [Bug 135048] New: easy comparing similar pictures using a lighttable

[Gilles Caulier-4]

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------- Additional Comments From caulier.gilles gmail com  2007-04-11 21:38 -------
Created an attachment (id=20237)
 --> (http://bugs.kde.org/attachment.cgi?id=20237&action=view)
first (and uncomplete) light table implementation...

This patch is an uncomplete approach of Light Table embedded in album gui and
using a sidebar tab on the left.

Do not claim than this implentation do not work in any case: it's uncomplete
and not fully tested.

I post this patch to have a first feedback, epecially to see if the way to have
the Light table embedded in Album Gui is the right way.

I'm not fully satisfied by it (:=))). I think than light table must be a
separate tool like Image Editor... But i'm not sure...

Of course the tool do not provide yet the way to compare image. The light table
sidebar tab is just a container to group the image to compare. When you select
an idem, it appear on the center using preview mode. You can just pan/scroll...


To add a picture to light table container, just use the pop-up menu with album
view and select the "Insert item to Light Table"

Limitation : the items cannot be yet removed from Light Table. digiKam do not
remember yet the items list in Light Table between session... and certainly
others stuff of course.

Please, try to be contructive. This is not yet time to request specific missing
features for Light Table. The implementation is in alpha stage...

Thansk in advance

Gilles
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------- Additional Comments From lparrab gmx net  2007-04-11 23:36 -------
If you have access to a windows (or mac) machine, it would be great if you could download the trial version of adobe lightroom. (or at least download one of the video-tutorials for example from luminous-landscape.com [very complete, about 15 USD] or one of the short demonstration videos from adobe.com [free])

Digikam is definitively one of the best photo-management applications I've seen on linux, and I really love it... I would almost dare to say that feature-wise, it is not much behind lightroom: the two BIG features missing are the lighttable/compare mode, and the non-destructive image edits.

So, again, Digikam is great. but the one thing in which Lightroom is years ahead is IMHO user-interface simplicity/consistency.

in LR there is a thumbbar *all the time* at the bottom of the screen containing the current "folder/collection/filtered" images (folder "x", with tags "y" and rating "z")

when you start in "library" mode, the thumbbar and the "preview/grid"-area contain the same thumbnails (as bar and grid, respectiv.) when you then double click on an image, it goes into preview mode, but the thumbbar stays at the bottom showing the current (maybe filtered)folder. you can then change images by clicking on the thumbbar. if you then select more than one image (hold CTL-key and select) they are shown side by side in the central area, with option to zoom in and to sync/link focus (position and zoom level).

to "exit" compare-mode, you can click on the "grid" icon to return to grid, or deselect the images (leave only one selected) to return to "preview" mode.

note that I don't mean to say that Digikam must copy or implement this or other features exactly like adobe, but I think they've put a great deal of time into getting the interface to be very "fluid" (powerful and yet simple/easy/quick), so maybe you want to look at it and eventually get some inspiration.

best regards. luis
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[Arnd Baecker]

Ad Gilles, #29, not yet reflecting the comments by Luis in #30

> Do not claim than this implentation do not work in any case: it's uncomplete
> and not fully tested.

For that it does work very well ;-)

> I post this patch to have a first feedback, epecially to see if the way to have
> the Light table embedded in Album Gui is the right way.
>
> I'm not fully satisfied by it (:=))). I think than light table must be a
> separate tool like Image Editor... But i'm not sure...


To me it does look like the right way - having another tool,
in a separate window, would lead to a less coherent appearance,
I think. Image selection (via the light table),
and rating and tagging are quite closely related, so
they should appear in the same framework
(e.g. sometimes it is only possible by zooming into a picture
to distinguish one type of duck from another;
but zooming into a picture is already necessary to judge
sharpness. So in a sense these two steps, selection and tagging,
can be done in one go).

Before going into the details, maybe it is worth
to think about the possible workflow:
a) Situation: several similar images
   Aim: select the best (according to whatever criterion) of them
b) select the relevant images in the Album view
   and add them to the light-table thumbs
c) all (or a subset?) of them will be displayed in the middle,
   as large as possible.
   Joint zooming and panning allows to see
   a magnified view of all selected images
d) Select the best one:
   - kick out images from the light-table view or
   - rate images

That's all. (or is anything missing?...;-)
Of course there might be different ways to set up the workflow
(so the opinion of users which have experience with
other software is definitively helpful).

Concerning c):
I am not sure if the default should be to display
just all thumbs placed in the lighttable
(otherwise we would have another selection step)?
It might be nice to be able to display the current picture
just alone in the middle (i.e., as it is at the moment) and
quickly switch back to the comparison view, where all
are shown. (But presumably  this is a minor detail at this point).

For d) one could use an additional color
label (eg. red, yellow, green, blue, and purple)
as available in other applications .

> Of course the tool do not provide yet the way to compare image. The light table
> sidebar tab is just a container to group the image to compare. When you select
> an idem, it appear on the center using preview mode. You can just pan/scroll...
>
>
> To add a picture to light table container, just use the pop-up menu with album
> view and select the "Insert item to Light Table"
>
> Limitation : the items cannot be yet removed from Light Table. digiKam do not
> remember yet the items list in Light Table between session... and certainly
> others stuff of course.
>
> Please, try to be contructive. This is not yet time to request specific missing
> features for Light Table. The implementation is in alpha stage...

There are of course a couple of *small* glitches
(just let me know if you would like to have a list
already at this point).

To mention one point already now:
I find the following a bit confusing:
- Go to Album view in a folder with images
- go to the light-table (empty or non empty, does not matter):
  now the images of the previous album folder are still displayed

Changing to the light-table side-bar should just display
the first (or later all) of its images in the middle.
(After changing to one of the thumbs in the ligtht-table,
this works as expected, so maybe it is just a simple initializatoin
call missing when selecting the light-table view).

Best, Arnd

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[Arnd Baecker]

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------- Additional Comments From arnd.baecker web de  2007-04-12 10:50 -------
Ad Gilles, #29, not yet reflecting the comments by Luis in #30

> Do not claim than this implentation do not work in any case: it's uncomplete
> and not fully tested.


For that it does work very well ;-)

> I post this patch to have a first feedback, epecially to see if the way to have
> the Light table embedded in Album Gui is the right way.
>
> I'm not fully satisfied by it (:=))). I think than light table must be a
> separate tool like Image Editor... But i'm not sure...



To me it does look like the right way - having another tool,
in a separate window, would lead to a less coherent appearance,
I think. Image selection (via the light table),
and rating and tagging are quite closely related, so
they should appear in the same framework
(e.g. sometimes it is only possible by zooming into a picture
to distinguish one type of duck from another;
but zooming into a picture is already necessary to judge
sharpness. So in a sense these two steps, selection and tagging,
can be done in one go).

Before going into the details, maybe it is worth
to think about the possible workflow:
a) Situation: several similar images
   Aim: select the best (according to whatever criterion) of them
b) select the relevant images in the Album view
   and add them to the light-table thumbs
c) all (or a subset?) of them will be displayed in the middle,
   as large as possible.
   Joint zooming and panning allows to see
   a magnified view of all selected images
d) Select the best one:
   - kick out images from the light-table view or
   - rate images

That's all. (or is anything missing?...;-)
Of course there might be different ways to set up the workflow
(so the opinion of users which have experience with
other software is definitively helpful).

Concerning c):
I am not sure if the default should be to display
just all thumbs placed in the lighttable
(otherwise we would have another selection step)?
It might be nice to be able to display the current picture
just alone in the middle (i.e., as it is at the moment) and
quickly switch back to the comparison view, where all
are shown. (But presumably  this is a minor detail at this point).

For d) one could use an additional color
label (eg. red, yellow, green, blue, and purple)
as available in other applications .

> Of course the tool do not provide yet the way to compare image. The light table
> sidebar tab is just a container to group the image to compare. When you select
> an idem, it appear on the center using preview mode. You can just pan/scroll...
>
>
> To add a picture to light table container, just use the pop-up menu with album
> view and select the "Insert item to Light Table"
>
> Limitation : the items cannot be yet removed from Light Table. digiKam do not
> remember yet the items list in Light Table between session... and certainly
> others stuff of course.
>
> Please, try to be contructive. This is not yet time to request specific missing
> features for Light Table. The implementation is in alpha stage...

There are of course a couple of *small* glitches
(just let me know if you would like to have a list
already at this point).

To mention one point already now:
I find the following a bit confusing:
- Go to Album view in a folder with images
- go to the light-table (empty or non empty, does not matter):
  now the images of the previous album folder are still displayed

Changing to the light-table side-bar should just display
the first (or later all) of its images in the middle.
(After changing to one of the thumbs in the ligtht-table,
this works as expected, so maybe it is just a simple initializatoin
call missing when selecting the light-table view).

Best, Arnd
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------- Additional Comments From mikmach wp pl  2007-04-12 18:33 -------
> This patch is an uncomplete approach of Light Table embedded in album
> gui and using a sidebar tab on the left.
>
> Do not claim than this implentation do not work in any case: it's
> uncomplete and not fully tested.


It compiles and what was said works, it works.

One major regression mentioned by Arnd: after playing with LT it is
impossible to Preview images with context menu and click. Only F3 works.

> I post this patch to have a first feedback, epecially to see if the way
> to have the Light table embedded in Album Gui is the right way.


Looks OK. Scaling works.

> I'm not fully satisfied by it (:=))). I think than light table must be a
> separate tool like Image Editor... But i'm not sure...


If this is technically much easier for produce/maintaining/expanding OK.
But already IE as separate window can confuse users.
>
>
> To add a picture to light table container, just use the pop-up menu with
> album view and select the "Insert item to Light Table"


Not sure if it is "missing feature" or design: it is not possible to
drag'n'drop to LT.
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[Gilles Caulier-4]

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           What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                 CC|                            |marcel.wiesweg gmx de



------- Additional Comments From caulier.gilles gmail com  2007-04-12 19:04 -------
To Mik, #32 :

>It compiles and what was said works, it works.

>One major regression mentioned by Arnd: after playing with LT it is
>impossible to Preview images with context menu and click. Only F3 works.

Yes, the implementation is not complete. Some control cases are missing.

>Looks OK. Scaling works.

>If this is technically much easier for produce/maintaining/expanding OK.
>But already IE as separate window can confuse users.

To maintain, it will more easy to do. This is why i'm more favorable to have a separate window for LT.

Since multiple context are implemented in Album gui (album view, preview, welcome page, etc.), adding LT is not trivial as well.

Marcel, i woukd to have your viewpoint about LT...

>Not sure if it is "missing feature" or design: it is not possible to
>drag'n'drop to LT.

It not yet implemented (:=)))

Gilles
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------- Additional Comments From mikmach wp pl  2007-04-12 19:37 -------
> Since multiple context are implemented in Album gui (album view,
> preview, welcome page, etc.), adding LT is not trivial as well.


What about adding it to IE?
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[Gilles Caulier-4]

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------- Additional Comments From caulier.gilles gmail com  2007-04-12 19:50 -------
>What about adding it to IE?

Yes, this is one other possibility...

Gilles
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[Arnd Baecker]

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------- Additional Comments From arnd.baecker web de  2007-04-13 08:33 -------
I am much more in favor of having it integrated
(Reasons: see #31).
Is there any other application out there which does something
like this in a separate window?
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[Gilles Caulier-4]

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------- Additional Comments From caulier.gilles gmail com  2007-04-13 08:36 -------
This is my main question...

The LT implementation will continue depending of the responses/investiguations from others developpers/users. It's important...

You know already my viewpoint (:=)))

Gilles
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[Arnd Baecker]

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------- Additional Comments From arnd.baecker web de  2007-04-13 08:43 -------
Concerning what is actually displayed in the center of the light-table:
The 1:1 zoom, makes clear that the representation
in the middle of the light-table
is a reduced version of the original, i.e. a 3456 x 2304
image does almost fit on a 1024x768 screen.

While something like this is maybe needed for performance reasons,
a light-table has to display the unmodified image.
Would be Frank's suggestion #16, in
http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=140131
a possible solution, also from the users perspective?

How do other application deal with this problem in their light-tables?
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[Gerhard Kulzer]

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------- Additional Comments From gerhard kulzer net  2007-04-13 09:09 -------
Obviously, if you compare several images they can't be at 100% zoom. The magnifying tool can be used to quickly compare details of images. Possibly there could be a parallel magnifier moving over the same spot in 2 images.

The second comparison mode should be sequenced images. Let me explain. It is often difficult to compare side by side when it's a question of tonality for example. A mode that lets you sequence images without refreshing the screen (as ajax does in the browser) is the best mode for this. This mode is nicely implemented in the plugin widgets pointer mode, you move the mouse in and out of the image and the change is applied or not.
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------- Additional Comments From mikmach wp pl  2007-04-13 10:11 -------
> The LT implementation will continue depending of the
> responses/investiguations from others developpers/users. It's
> important...


IMO - better is: better solution with more features in new, separate
window than crippled implementation in existing window.

The only issue I see is live manipulation of LT list from album view
with LT in separate window. LT window could bring one nice feature (I
cannot see how to do in current window constellation) - multiple LT
windows and browsing through stacks of photos.

> You know already my viewpoint (:=)))


Yeah, I am just looking at my Thinking in C++ copy... Without much hope :(

----------------------------------------------------
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------- Additional Comments From mikmach wp pl  2007-04-13 10:18 -------
> Obviously, if you compare several images they can't be at 100% zoom. The
> magnifying tool can be used to quickly compare details of images.
> Possibly there could be a parallel magnifier moving over the same spot
> in 2 images.


As I understand images should be shown in some grid, each image with
identical zoom factor and viewport. When changing zoom factor and
viewport it should be done for all images at the same time. I think this
is the simpliest method.

But there should be way to turn off binding of images. Some checkbox
like in Konqueror for chaining views. This would be required to compare:
landscape and portrait images; various compositions.

> The second comparison mode should be sequenced images. Let me explain.


You mean like quick Alt-Tab between windows? That would be nice too.

> this. This mode is nicely implemented in the plugin widgets pointer
> mode, you move the mouse in and out of the image and the change is
> applied or not.


But limited only to two versions.

----------------------------------------------------
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[Gerhard Kulzer]

 ------- You are receiving this mail because: -------

> You are the assignee for the bug, or are watching the assignee.
>
> http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=135048
>
>
>
>
> ------- Additional Comments From mikmach wp pl  2007-04-13 10:18 -------
>
> > Obviously, if you compare several images they can't be at 100% zoom. The
> > magnifying tool can be used to quickly compare details of images.
> > Possibly there could be a parallel magnifier moving over the same spot
> > in 2 images.
>
> As I understand images should be shown in some grid, each image with
> identical zoom factor and viewport. When changing zoom factor and
> viewport it should be done for all images at the same time. I think this
> is the simpliest method.

Agreed

> But there should be way to turn off binding of images. Some checkbox
> like in Konqueror for chaining views. This would be required to compare:
> landscape and portrait images; various compositions.
>
> > The second comparison mode should be sequenced images. Let me explain.
>
> You mean like quick Alt-Tab between windows? That would be nice too.
>
> > this. This mode is nicely implemented in the plugin widgets pointer
> > mode, you move the mouse in and out of the image and the change is
> > applied or not.
>
> But limited only to two versions.
>

No, one could use the mousewheel in this mode to sift through a stack of

images, very elegantly!

Gerhard

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[Gerhard Kulzer]

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------- Additional Comments From gerhard kulzer net  2007-04-13 12:03 -------
 ------- You are receiving this mail because: -------

> You are the assignee for the bug, or are watching the assignee.
>
> http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=135048
>
>
>
>
> ------- Additional Comments From mikmach wp pl  2007-04-13 10:18 -------
>
> > Obviously, if you compare several images they can't be at 100% zoom. The
> > magnifying tool can be used to quickly compare details of images.
> > Possibly there could be a parallel magnifier moving over the same spot
> > in 2 images.
>
> As I understand images should be shown in some grid, each image with
> identical zoom factor and viewport. When changing zoom factor and
> viewport it should be done for all images at the same time. I think this
> is the simpliest method.

Agreed

> But there should be way to turn off binding of images. Some checkbox
> like in Konqueror for chaining views. This would be required to compare:
> landscape and portrait images; various compositions.
>
> > The second comparison mode should be sequenced images. Let me explain.
>
> You mean like quick Alt-Tab between windows? That would be nice too.
>
> > this. This mode is nicely implemented in the plugin widgets pointer
> > mode, you move the mouse in and out of the image and the change is
> > applied or not.
>
> But limited only to two versions.
>

No, one could use the mousewheel in this mode to sift through a stack of
images, very elegantly!

Gerhard
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           What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Gilles Caulier-4]

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------- Additional Comments From caulier.gilles gmail com  2007-04-19 16:06 -------
Created an attachment (id=20326)
 --> (http://bugs.kde.org/attachment.cgi?id=20326&action=view)
patch to test new Thumbbar implementation depending of digiKam DB

This patch is a test implementation to use the new thumbbar witch use digiKam
DB.
This thumbbar will be used by future LT implementation.
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[Gilles Caulier-4]

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           What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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        is obsolete|                            |



------- Additional Comments From caulier.gilles gmail com  2007-04-19 16:11 -------
Created an attachment (id=20328)
 --> (http://bugs.kde.org/attachment.cgi?id=20328&action=view)
Thumbbar for LT using digiKam DB informations.

THis screenshot give a view of the new thumbbar for LT with tooltip in action
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http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=135048         




------- Additional Comments From mikmach wp pl  2007-04-19 19:59 -------
> This patch is a test implementation to use the new thumbbar witch use
> digiKam DB.


Looks nice but it miss arrow in the corner pointing to right image.
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