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Color Management and RAW/NEF files

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Mark Greenwood-2

Color Management and RAW/NEF files

Please will somebody explain to me what is going on when I try to import my NEF files into Digikam? I've read all the information I can, but I cannot understand how Digikam expects the workflow to occur and I seem to be getting random results.

I'm using digiKam on Kubuntu 9.10. Digikam reports its version as rc..-rc, apt says I have version 2:1.0.0~rc
My settings are as follows:
Image Editor - 'Use Raw Import Tool to handle RAW Images' is disabled
All settings under 'RAW Decoding' are set to the defaults
Colour Management : Enabled
Working colour space is set to SRGB
When the profile of an image does not match the working colour space - 'Ask when opening the image'
When an image has no colour profile information - 'Ask when opening the image'
When loading a RAW file with uncalibrated colours - 'Convert it from the default input profile'
Monitor Profile is set to sRGB
I am using colour managed view for editor and for previews and thumbnails.
Default input colour profile is a Nikon D60 profile I created using the Nikon software under Windows.

I am currently testing using one RAW image I have run through the Nikon software and saved as JPEG so I have something to compare to. The icc profile I'm using is the one the Nikon software used when I loaded that image. The embedded preview when viewed in Digikam is clear, bright, and saturated. It looks exactly like the JPEG I have exported from the Nikon software. However when I open the RAW image in Digikam's Editor I get a dark and highly oversaturated image. Even stranger is if I close the editor and return to the image preview, the preview has changed from the bright saturated image I started with to a dark, unsaturated, washed-out image. I do not understand what is happening.

What am I doing wrong? Please.. I really want to use Digikam but the sheer number of options is making my head spin. Also it seems that some changes to colour management settings don't do anything until I restart Digikam, so it is becoming impossible to tell what makes a difference and what doesn't. Don't make me go out and buy a Mac, please... :)

Mark
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Bugzilla from gclaramunt@gmail.com

Re: Color Management and RAW/NEF files

As far as i know, a RAW picture is the camera sensor information "as is".
Usually cameras apply some adjustments to RAW picture (brightness, contrast, saturation, white balance, sharpness, etc) to convert those raw bytes into the JPEG preview or JPEG version of your photo.
If you open a RAW picture with software made by the camera's manufacturer, same adjustments are done, so you see the "same" picture when you compare the RAW and the JPEG.
Some other softwares handle a little database of raw formats and "default adjustments" for them, trying to obtain the same result, but sometimes they can't and is all left to you :).
It's like analog photography... the negative development can give you a really cool photo or a "washedoutburnedcolorness" one... but the negative is the same!.
You could tweak some params in "raw import tool" trying to get the best of one RAW, and then use those settings as default when opening every other raw.

Remember that almost every raw development software gives you slightly different pictures from the same RAW file... some of them with HUGE differences...

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Mark Greenwood-2

Re: Color Management and RAW/NEF files

On Saturday 12 Dec 2009 21:09:09 Goose wrote:

> As far as i know, a RAW picture is the camera sensor information "as is".
> Usually cameras apply some adjustments to RAW picture (brightness, contrast,
> saturation, white balance, sharpness, etc) to convert those raw bytes into
> the JPEG preview or JPEG version of your photo.
> If you open a RAW picture with software made by the camera's manufacturer,
> same adjustments are done, so you see the "same" picture when you compare
> the RAW and the JPEG.
> Some other softwares handle a little database of raw formats and "default
> adjustments" for them, trying to obtain the same result, but sometimes they
> can't and is all left to you :).
> It's like analog photography... the negative development can give you a
> really cool photo or a "washedoutburnedcolorness" one... but the negative is
> the same!.
> You could tweak some params in "raw import tool" trying to get the best of
> one RAW, and then use those settings as default when opening every other
> raw.
>
> Remember that almost every raw development software gives you slightly
> different pictures from the same RAW file... some of them with HUGE
> differences...
>

OK, thanks, but I understand that. The problem I'm having with Digikam is that I cannot, no matter what I try, get Digikam to produce anything that looks even remotely like how it should. Everything is much too dark and either oversaturated or understaurated. Small differences I could understand but the results I'm getting by loading NEF files into Digikam are not useable for any purpose.

Mark
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Wilkins, Vern W

Re: Color Management and RAW/NEF files

In reply to this post by Mark Greenwood-2

I agree, RAW conversion is terrible at least w/ 16 bits. I've never been able to get good 16 bit RAW results with any version of digikam, including 1.0.0rc. I gave up long ago, but I check every new release hoping something will change. I've always just used ufraw to convert my raw images and save them to png. Then I do anything I can't do in ufraw, like sharpening, in Digikam and save the jpg's. It takes a little longer but ufraw does an incredible job (color management works too) with no hassle.

Vern

________________________________________
From: Mark Greenwood [[hidden email]]
Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2009 1:39 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Digikam-users] Color Management and RAW/NEF files

Please will somebody explain to me what is going on when I try to import my NEF files into Digikam? I've read all the information I can, but I cannot understand how Digikam expects the workflow to occur and I seem to be getting random results.

I'm using digiKam on Kubuntu 9.10. Digikam reports its version as rc..-rc, apt says I have version 2:1.0.0~rc
My settings are as follows:
Image Editor - 'Use Raw Import Tool to handle RAW Images' is disabled
All settings under 'RAW Decoding' are set to the defaults
Colour Management : Enabled
Working colour space is set to SRGB
When the profile of an image does not match the working colour space - 'Ask when opening the image'
When an image has no colour profile information - 'Ask when opening the image'
When loading a RAW file with uncalibrated colours - 'Convert it from the default input profile'
Monitor Profile is set to sRGB
I am using colour managed view for editor and for previews and thumbnails.
Default input colour profile is a Nikon D60 profile I created using the Nikon software under Windows.

I am currently testing using one RAW image I have run through the Nikon software and saved as JPEG so I have something to compare to. The icc profile I'm using is the one the Nikon software used when I loaded that image. The embedded preview when viewed in Digikam is clear, bright, and saturated. It looks exactly like the JPEG I have exported from the Nikon software. However when I open the RAW image in Digikam's Editor I get a dark and highly oversaturated image. Even stranger is if I close the editor and return to the image preview, the preview has changed from the bright saturated image I started with to a dark, unsaturated, washed-out image. I do not understand what is happening.

What am I doing wrong? Please.. I really want to use Digikam but the sheer number of options is making my head spin. Also it seems that some changes to colour management settings don't do anything until I restart Digikam, so it is becoming impossible to tell what makes a difference and what doesn't. Don't make me go out and buy a Mac, please... :)

Mark
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sean darcy

Re: Color Management and RAW/NEF files

On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 7:32 PM, Wilkins, Vern W <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I agree, RAW conversion is terrible at least w/ 16 bits. I've never been able to get good 16 bit RAW results with any version of digikam, including 1.0.0rc. I gave up long ago, but I check every new release hoping something will change. I've always just used ufraw to convert my raw images and save them to png. Then I do anything I can't do in ufraw, like sharpening, in Digikam and save the jpg's. It takes a little longer but ufraw does an incredible job (color management works too) with no hassle.
>
> Vern
>
> ________________________________________
> From: Mark Greenwood [[hidden email]]
> Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2009 1:39 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [Digikam-users] Color Management and RAW/NEF files
>
> Please will somebody explain to me what is going on when I try to import my NEF files into Digikam? I've read all the information I can, but I cannot understand how Digikam expects the workflow to occur and I seem to be getting random results.
>
> I'm using digiKam on Kubuntu 9.10. Digikam reports its version as rc..-rc, apt says I have version 2:1.0.0~rc
> My settings are as follows:
> Image Editor - 'Use Raw Import Tool to handle RAW Images' is disabled
> All settings under 'RAW Decoding' are set to the defaults
> Colour Management : Enabled
> Working colour space is set to SRGB
> When the profile of an image does not match the working colour space - 'Ask when opening the image'
> When an image has no colour profile information - 'Ask when opening the image'
> When loading a RAW file with uncalibrated colours - 'Convert it from the default input profile'
> Monitor Profile is set to sRGB
> I am using colour managed view for editor and for previews and thumbnails.
> Default input colour profile is a Nikon D60 profile I created using the Nikon software under Windows.
>
> I am currently testing using one RAW image I have run through the Nikon software and saved as JPEG so I have something to compare to. The icc profile I'm using is the one the Nikon software used when I loaded that image. The embedded preview when viewed in Digikam is clear, bright, and saturated. It looks exactly like the JPEG I have exported from the Nikon software. However when I open the RAW image in Digikam's Editor I get a dark and highly oversaturated image. Even stranger is if I close the editor and return to the image preview, the preview has changed from the bright saturated image I started with to a dark, unsaturated, washed-out image. I do not understand what is happening.
>
> What am I doing wrong? Please.. I really want to use Digikam but the sheer number of options is making my head spin. Also it seems that some changes to colour management settings don't do anything until I restart Digikam, so it is becoming impossible to tell what makes a difference and what doesn't. Don't make me go out and buy a Mac, please... :)
>
> Mark
> _______________________________________________
> Digikam-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/digikam-users
> _______________________________________________
> Digikam-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/digikam-users
>

One thing you might try is to load the NEF .icc ( sometimes .icm)
profiles into digikam. If you installed the Nikon windows drivers copy
them to /usr/share/color/icc/ and then tell digikam to use them.

Search for NK*.ic{c,m}.

sean

sean
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S. Burmeister

Re: Color Management and RAW/NEF files

In reply to this post by Mark Greenwood-2

Am Samstag, 12. Dezember 2009 19:39:45 schrieb Mark Greenwood:
> Please will somebody explain to me what is going on when I try to import my
> NEF files into Digikam? I've read all the information I can, but I cannot
> understand how Digikam expects the workflow to occur and I seem to be
> getting random results.
>
> I'm using digiKam on Kubuntu 9.10. Digikam reports its version as rc..-rc,
> apt says I have version 2:1.0.0~rc My settings are as follows:
> Image Editor - 'Use Raw Import Tool to handle RAW Images' is disabled

You could enable the latter and try to change everything until it fits your
needs. Then you save the import utility's settings or put them into the
default digikam settings. You could also try to disable colour management and
adjust the whitebalance etc. manually just to make sure that it's not a
general issue but e.g. related to the colour management only. This would help
tracking down the bug.

There was a bug in the rc1 that prevented the batch queue manager to use the
default settings and always enable automatic brightness etc. so make sure you
try with current svn or the next release if you use the bqm.

Sven
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Gilles Caulier-4

Re: Color Management and RAW/NEF files

In reply to this post by Wilkins, Vern W

I have a lots of NEF files there to test and opening in editor with
RAW Import tool is suitable. I don't use CM and i work in 16 bits
color depth.

preview : http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4011/4181154142_3c26153464_b.jpg
raw import : http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2664/4181153432_194912f328_b.jpg
image editor : http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2764/4181153828_6bc51f3d2d_b.jpg

Using wrong ICC color profile in CM will give wrong results...

I know that Ufraw use NEF curves adjustments from file metadata. I'm
not sure if libraw used by digiKam to play with RAW file do the same
automatically.

Anyway, RAW require manual adjustments. In others way use JPEG...

Other important point : preview is JPEG embedded from RAW file and
fully pre-processed by camera. It's not RAW image ! This is why you
cannot see the same result in RAW import...

Gilles Caulier

2009/12/13 Wilkins, Vern W <[hidden email]>:

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Milan Knížek

Re: Color Management and RAW/NEF files

In reply to this post by Mark Greenwood-2

Mark Greenwood píše v So 12. 12. 2009 v 18:39 +0000:
> Please will somebody explain to me what is going on when I try to import my NEF files into Digikam? I've read all the information I can, but I cannot understand how Digikam expects the workflow to occur and I seem to be getting random results.
>
> I'm using digiKam on Kubuntu 9.10. Digikam reports its version as rc..-rc, apt says I have version 2:1.0.0~rc
> My settings are as follows:
> Image Editor - 'Use Raw Import Tool to handle RAW Images' is disabled
> All settings under 'RAW Decoding' are set to the defaults
To begin with, try to disable 16bit and check that "auto brightness" is
on.
> Working colour space is set to SRGB
> When the profile of an image does not match the working colour space - 'Ask when opening the image'
> When an image has no colour profile information - 'Ask when opening the image'
> When loading a RAW file with uncalibrated colours - 'Convert it from the default input profile'
Try to set "Automatic Color Correction".
> Monitor Profile is set to sRGB
If you get a reasonable picture, then try to change the options one by
one.

best regards,

Milan Knizek
knizek (dot) confy (at) volny (dot) cz
http://www.milan-knizek.net - About linux and photography (Czech
language only)

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Mark Greenwood-2

Re: Color Management and RAW/NEF files

On Monday 14 Dec 2009 18:05:12 Milan Knížek wrote:

> Mark Greenwood píše v So 12. 12. 2009 v 18:39 +0000:
> > Please will somebody explain to me what is going on when I try to import my NEF files into Digikam? I've read all the information I can, but I cannot understand how Digikam expects the workflow to occur and I seem to be getting random results.
> >
> > I'm using digiKam on Kubuntu 9.10. Digikam reports its version as rc..-rc, apt says I have version 2:1.0.0~rc
> > My settings are as follows:
> > Image Editor - 'Use Raw Import Tool to handle RAW Images' is disabled
> > All settings under 'RAW Decoding' are set to the defaults
> To begin with, try to disable 16bit and check that "auto brightness" is
> on.
> > Working colour space is set to SRGB
> > When the profile of an image does not match the working colour space - 'Ask when opening the image'
> > When an image has no colour profile information - 'Ask when opening the image'
> > When loading a RAW file with uncalibrated colours - 'Convert it from the default input profile'
> Try to set "Automatic Color Correction".
> > Monitor Profile is set to sRGB
> If you get a reasonable picture, then try to change the options one by
> one.

Thanks to all who replied. I've found that the best results are obtained by disabling Colour Management completely.

For the record, I've discovered that, at least with NEF files, the Nikon software creates an icm profile on the fly, and it is different for every single NEF file. Hence copying icm files from the Nikon software is a non-starter.

However with colour management disabled I'm now able to get results comparable to those achievable with Bibble, just by using Digikam.

Mark

>
> best regards,
>
>
> Milan Knizek
> knizek (dot) confy (at) volny (dot) cz
> http://www.milan-knizek.net - About linux and photography (Czech
> language only)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Digikam-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/digikam-users
>

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