Best LInux distro for my needs?

[Paul Verizzo]

You may recall that I'm going to probably use an old computer dedicated to digiKam on Linux - that's how much I love this thing! - in order to gain stability and faster updates.  I don't recall the specifics, but it's an older, slower machine.  It runs Windows 2000 OK, but the USB is 1.0, so that gives you some clue as to hardware level.  It will have to do for now.

So, what's the best distro for me?  First, minimal overhead on the computer.  I'm thinking one of the KDE based laptop or netbook distros.  Does that make sense?  Second, ability to do updates without compiling, a Debian based program I presume.  I see even the much vaunted Ubuntu in the latest version has it's issues getting the latest DK. 

And no, dual boot isn't the solution.  I want to be able to use the rest of my computer while working in DK, to say nothing of the new partition thing. 

Remember, my question is "What is best for me?", not "What is your favorite distro?"

Thanks!

Paul

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[David Talmage-2]

On Thu Sep  2  9:16 , Paul Verizzo <[hidden email]> sent:


>You may
>recall that I'm going to probably use an old computer dedicated to
>digiKam on Linux - that's how much I love this thing! - in order to
>gain stability and faster updates.  I don't recall the specifics, but
> ...
>So, what's the best distro for me?  First, minimal overhead on the
>computer.  I'm thinking one of the KDE based laptop or netbook
>distros.  Does that make sense?  Second, ability to do updates without
> ...

How does your old computer compare to a netbook?

I have run DigiKam on an Asus EEE PC 1000 for a couple of years.  I'm currently
using Kubuntu 10.04 but I've also used Xubuntu on it.  Both work just fine.  I
didn't care for the netbook remix edition.  I've tried it twice and it wasn't
ready for Prime Time.  DigiKam on my netbook is slower than I'd like but I think
related to slow storage.  I have the choice of a few pictures on the SSD or or
lots of pictures on NFS.

David Talmage


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[Bruce Marshall]

On Thursday, September 02, 2010, Paul Verizzo wrote:

> You may recall that I'm going to probably use an old computer dedicated to
> digiKam on Linux - that's how much I love this thing! - in order to gain
> stability and faster updates.  I don't recall the specifics, but it's an
> older, slower machine.  It runs Windows 2000 OK, but the USB is 1.0, so
> that gives you some clue as to hardware level.  It will have to do for
> now.
>
>  So, what's the best distro for me?  First, minimal overhead on the
> computer.  I'm thinking one of the KDE based laptop or netbook distros.
> Does that make sense?  Second, ability to do updates without compiling, a
> Debian based program I presume.  I see even the much vaunted Ubuntu in the
> latest version has it's issues getting the latest DK.
>
>  And no, dual boot isn't the solution.  I want to be able to use the rest
> of my computer while working in DK, to say nothing of the new partition
> thing.
>
>  Remember, my question is "What is best for me?", not "What is your
> favorite distro?"
>
>  Thanks!
>
>  Paul

IMHO, I would run kubuntu (ubuntu with KDE), but once that is installed I
would install XFCE or one of the other low-overhead window managers.

That's what I am running on this hunga  amd64 machine with lots of memory and
disk space.  

I haven't had any problems with digikam under kubuntu  10.4
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[gerlos]

Paul Verizzo ha scritto:
> You may recall that I'm going to probably use an old computer dedicated
> to digiKam on Linux - that's how much I love this thing! - in order to
> gain stability and faster updates.  I don't recall the specifics, but
> it's an older, slower machine.  It runs Windows 2000 OK, but the USB is
> 1.0, so that gives you some clue as to hardware level.  

It seems a quite old machine. I don't expect big performances from this
computer... let us know how good it runs.
[CUT]
> Remember, my question is "What is best for me?", not "What is your
> favorite distro?"

Any distro should be fine, as long you disable some things. I'd prefer
an APT-based distro such as debian or ubuntu, mostly for its very good
package management tools, that make a lot of things easier.

> And no, dual boot isn't the solution.  I want to be able to use the rest
> of my computer while working in DK, to say nothing of the new partition
> thing.

So, you want to run gnu/linux as long as you run Windows 2000? Really?
This means that you'll run two operating systems at a time - no matter
how lightweight is the linux distro,  this solution will result
obviously in a slow system: you'll need to run linux inside a virtual
machine such as Virtualbox.

But maybe I misunderstood you. Maybe you just need to access your files
on the windows partition(s). OK, so it's easy: any linux system nowadays
can read and write any NTFS or FAT partition, so you can have a dual
booting system and still read the files you have on windows.

> So, what's the best distro for me?  First, minimal overhead on the
> computer.  I'm thinking one of the KDE based laptop or netbook distros.  
> Does that make sense?  Second, ability to do updates without compiling,
> a Debian based program I presume.  I see even the much vaunted Ubuntu in
> the latest version has it's issues getting the latest DK.

If you want a really bleeding edge distro, with always the latest
software, you could go with a rolling release distro, like debian
unstable (or testing), but expect some little problems once in a while.

If you are just entering in the gnu/linux world, I suggest you to
install any "normal" distro, such as Kubuntu, Mandriva or Suse. The fact
that they're "freezed" for six months, ensure you that most of the bugs
and configuration problems are already solved for you.
The "problem" with updates is that a lot of distros distribute updates
every six months, and in the meantime they provide (almost) only
security updates while the digikam team release a new version every
month. So you it's quite unlikely that you'll have always the latest
digikam from you distributor.

But you can setup your system to build digikam as soon as it is
released, and install it from source. It's not as difficult as it may
seem, and after the first time it's a lot easier, since you just need to
copy the new source tree and run a couple of commands.
I do this for every release, with minimal effort. I just start the build
process before dinner, and get the latest digikam installed after dinner.

good luck
gerlos
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[Vlado Plaga]

Am Thu, 02 Sep 2010 09:16:29 -0400
schrieb Paul Verizzo <[hidden email]>:

> And no, dual boot isn't the solution.  I want to be able to use the rest of my computer while working in DK, to say nothing of the new partition thing.

Yes, I remember your e-mail on digiKam/Windows instability. I answered
with "why not dual-boot?", and your answer makes sense. So here is
another suggestion: use VirtualBox, as Gerlos thought you wanted to do,
because he thought you were just talking about one computer instead of
two.

I use VirtualBox under Ubuntu, and I'm running Windows 2000 (Internet
Explorer 6), Windows XP (Internet Explorer 8) and Windows 7 (IE 9
preview) in it. It works very well and with the "shared folder" feature
transferring files between host and guest is relatively convenient (and
should certainly be faster than with USB1).

DigiKam 1.2 on Debian and Ubuntu works all right for my purposes. I'm
most accustomed to these distros, and I can recommend them. If you'd be
contend with digiKam 1.2 for some time (which is already very good for
organizing photos), and don't want to upgrade the complete system within
the next year or longer, I'd recommend using Debian "testing", which is
already "frozen" and will become 6.0 at some point. By default Debian
comes with the Gnome desktop environment, but this can easily be
replaced by KDE, or a lightweight environment such as XFCE.

http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/weekly-builds/

Virtualbox is easy and free to use:
http://www.virtualbox.org/

Ubuntu 10.04 also comes with digiKam 1.2, and Ubuntu 10.10 might come
with a broken digiKam 1.3:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/digikam/+bug/625452

Regards,
Vlado

--

       Vlado Plaga                        __o
    http://vlado-do.de                 _o/\<,_
    update: 2010-07-03                 (U)/ (u)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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[gerlos]

Vlado Plaga ha scritto:

> Am Thu, 02 Sep 2010 09:16:29 -0400
> schrieb Paul Verizzo <[hidden email]>:
>
>> And no, dual boot isn't the solution.  I want to be able to use the rest of my computer while working in DK, to say nothing of the new partition thing.
>
> Yes, I remember your e-mail on digiKam/Windows instability. I answered
> with "why not dual-boot?", and your answer makes sense. So here is
> another suggestion: use VirtualBox, as Gerlos thought you wanted to do,
> because he thought you were just talking about one computer instead of
> two.

Definitvely, I misunderstood Paul Verizzo... but some of that things are
still valid: if you remove things that you don't need, you can run any
linux distro on that old machine. Just be sure to have at least one GB
of RAM. You can work with less, but will be a pain.
I always run latest Digikam with an old Pentium 4 @2.6 GHz with 2 GB of
RAM and it's good for my needs. It is still quite slow on RAW images,
but for them I can use my macbook pro buyed last year, that is a lot faster.

I run latest Mandriva on the Pentium 4 machine and latest Kubuntu on the
macbook pro, and they run very well. I prefer Kubuntu because of APT,
but in any other way, they are both good.

> I use VirtualBox under Ubuntu, and I'm running Windows 2000 (Internet
> Explorer 6), Windows XP (Internet Explorer 8) and Windows 7 (IE 9
> preview) in it. It works very well and with the "shared folder" feature
> transferring files between host and guest is relatively convenient (and
> should certainly be faster than with USB1).

I can confirm that, given a powerful enough machine, you can run any
system (such as Kubuntu) in Virtualbox, and it will run quite well. You
need only to have enough RAM. Think of 1 GB for the guest system running
digikam and at least 512 MB for the host system.

regards
gerlos
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[pshute]

Can someone please explain why digiKam compiles so easily under Linux, yet with Windows there are always at least some problems to solve first?



------Original Message------

From: Gerlos

To: [hidden email]

ReplyTo: [hidden email]

Subject: Re: [Digikam-users] Best LInux distro for my needs?

Sent: Sep 3, 2010 12:57 AM



Paul Verizzo ha scritto:

> You may recall that I'm going to probably use an old computer dedicated

> to digiKam on Linux - that's how much I love this thing! - in order to

> gain stability and faster updates.  I don't recall the specifics, but

> it's an older, slower machine.  It runs Windows 2000 OK, but the USB is

> 1.0, so that gives you some clue as to hardware level.  



It seems a quite old machine. I don't expect big performances from this

computer... let us know how good it runs.

[CUT]

> Remember, my question is "What is best for me?", not "What is your

> favorite distro?"



Any distro should be fine, as long you disable some things. I'd prefer

an APT-based distro such as debian or ubuntu, mostly for its very good

package management tools, that make a lot of things easier.



> And no, dual boot isn't the solution.  I want to be able to use the rest

> of my computer while working in DK, to say nothing of the new partition

> thing.



So, you want to run gnu/linux as long as you run Windows 2000? Really?

This means that you'll run two operating systems at a time - no matter

how lightweight is the linux distro,  this solution will result

obviously in a slow system: you'll need to run linux inside a virtual

machine such as Virtualbox.



But maybe I misunderstood you. Maybe you just need to access your files

on the windows partition(s). OK, so it's easy: any linux system nowadays

can read and write any NTFS or FAT partition, so you can have a dual

booting system and still read the files you have on windows.



> So, what's the best distro for me?  First, minimal overhead on the

> computer.  I'm thinking one of the KDE based laptop or netbook distros.  

> Does that make sense?  Second, ability to do updates without compiling,

> a Debian based program I presume.  I see even the much vaunted Ubuntu in

> the latest version has it's issues getting the latest DK.



If you want a really bleeding edge distro, with always the latest

software, you could go with a rolling release distro, like debian

unstable (or testing), but expect some little problems once in a while.



If you are just entering in the gnu/linux world, I suggest you to

install any "normal" distro, such as Kubuntu, Mandriva or Suse. The fact

that they're "freezed" for six months, ensure you that most of the bugs

and configuration problems are already solved for you.

The "problem" with updates is that a lot of distros distribute updates

every six months, and in the meantime they provide (almost) only

security updates while the digikam team release a new version every

month. So you it's quite unlikely that you'll have always the latest

digikam from you distributor.



But you can setup your system to build digikam as soon as it is

released, and install it from source. It's not as difficult as it may

seem, and after the first time it's a lot easier, since you just need to

copy the new source tree and run a couple of commands.

I do this for every release, with minimal effort. I just start the build

process before dinner, and get the latest digikam installed after dinner.



good luck

gerlos

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[hidden email]

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--------------------------

Sent using BlackBerry
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[FireFly]

--- On Thu, 9/2/10, Peter Shute <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: Peter Shute <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Digikam-users] Best LInux distro for my needs?
> To: "'[hidden email]'" <[hidden email]>
> Date: Thursday, September 2, 2010, 11:27 AM
> Can someone please explain why
> digiKam compiles so easily under Linux, yet with Windows
> there are always at least some problems to solve first?
>

Simple, Digikam was written for Linux, using KDE standard libraries (I believe), Digikam was NOT written for windows, and windows does not include any of those same libraries, so getting it to compile is quite an effort.

- James Duerr

E-mail: [hidden email]
---------------------
Discover a lost art - play Marbles. May 2004
www.marillion.com


     
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[Jean-Michel Pouré-4]

On Fri, 2010-09-03 at 04:27 +1000, Peter Shute wrote:
> Can someone please explain why digiKam compiles so easily under Linux,
> yet with Windows there are always at least some problems to solve
> first?

Because GNU/Linux is the universal operating system and Digikam was made
for GNU/Linux, not Windows.

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[pshute]

Yet it can be compiled and run successfully. I'm thinking it's just because there are more knowledgeable Linux digiKam users, and the compilation problems get fixed quickly. For a Windows user it's as if no one attempts to resolve any compilation issues between releases.

Perhaps it's the separation of digiKam from KDE on Windows that makes these problems hard to get fixed.


--------------------------
Sent using BlackBerry

----- Original Message -----
From: Jean-Michel Pouré <[hidden email]>
To: digiKam - Home Manage your photographs as a professional with the power of open source <[hidden email]>
Sent: Fri Sep 03 06:46:14 2010
Subject: Re: [Digikam-users] Best LInux distro for my needs?

On Fri, 2010-09-03 at 04:27 +1000, Peter Shute wrote:
> Can someone please explain why digiKam compiles so easily under Linux,
> yet with Windows there are always at least some problems to solve
> first?

Because GNU/Linux is the universal operating system and Digikam was made
for GNU/Linux, not Windows.
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[David kerber-2]

Peter Shute wrote:

> Yet it can be compiled and run successfully. I'm thinking it's just because there are more knowledgeable Linux digiKam users, and the compilation problems get fixed quickly. For a Windows user it's as if no one attempts to resolve any compilation issues between releases.
>
> Perhaps it's the separation of digiKam from KDE on Windows that makes these problems hard to get fixed.
>
>
> --------------------------
> Sent using BlackBerry
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jean-Michel Pouré <[hidden email]>
> To: digiKam - Home Manage your photographs as a professional with the power of open source <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Fri Sep 03 06:46:14 2010
> Subject: Re: [Digikam-users] Best LInux distro for my needs?
>
> On Fri, 2010-09-03 at 04:27 +1000, Peter Shute wrote:
>  
>> Can someone please explain why digiKam compiles so easily under Linux,
>> yet with Windows there are always at least some problems to solve
>> first?
>>    
>
> Because GNU/Linux is the universal operating system and Digikam was made
> for GNU/Linux, not Windows.
>  

I'm setting up a new machine, and I'm going to be trying to keep up with
windows ports of the DK versions, but don't know much about C
programming, so it will likely be slow going for a while.

D



> _______________________________________________
> Digikam-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/digikam-users
>  

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[Vlado Plaga]

Am Thu, 02 Sep 2010 18:34:18 +0200
schrieb Gerlos <[hidden email]>:

> if you remove things that you don't need, you can
> run any linux distro on that old machine. Just be sure to have at
> least one GB of RAM. You can work with less, but will be a pain.
> I always run latest Digikam with an old Pentium 4 @2.6 GHz with 2 GB
> of RAM and it's good for my needs.

Hey, that's not a slow machine to me! I run digiKam on a PowerPC G4 @1
GHz with 1.5 GB of RAM (a 2003 iMac)... but it is slow, and I'm not even
using RAW images. Still it is very usable for tagging and organizing
images, if I only save metadata to the database instead of to the
images.

Things I usually disable/ uninstall in Ubuntu are apt-xapian-index,
pulseaudio, and strigi desktop search. Otherwise it makes no difference
whether you install Gnome, KDE, and 10,000 other packages or not - as
long as you've got enough hard disk space, and you don't run everything
at once.

> I can confirm that, given a powerful enough machine, you can run any
> system (such as Kubuntu) in Virtualbox, and it will run quite well.
> You need only to have enough RAM. Think of 1 GB for the guest system
> running digikam and at least 512 MB for the host system.

I think these figures are good estimates. I use VirtualBox on an AMD64
notebook with 2 GB RAM. Such a setup would be much better for digiKam
than an old computer with maybe just 0.5 GB of RAM in total, and a slow
CPU.

With the VirtualBox guest additions installed you can just move your
mouse pointer over the guest window and out of it, to switch between
the systems. But of course the guest can go full screen as well.

Regards,
Vlado
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[S. Burmeister]

Am Donnerstag, 2. September 2010, 16:49:19 schrieb Bruce Marshall:

> On Thursday, September 02, 2010, Paul Verizzo wrote:
> > You may recall that I'm going to probably use an old computer dedicated
> > to digiKam on Linux - that's how much I love this thing! - in order to
> > gain stability and faster updates.  I don't recall the specifics, but
> > it's an older, slower machine.  It runs Windows 2000 OK, but the USB is
> > 1.0, so that gives you some clue as to hardware level.  It will have to
> > do for now.
> >
> >  So, what's the best distro for me?  First, minimal overhead on the
> >
> > computer.  I'm thinking one of the KDE based laptop or netbook distros.
> > Does that make sense?  Second, ability to do updates without compiling, a
> > Debian based program I presume.  I see even the much vaunted Ubuntu in
> > the latest version has it's issues getting the latest DK.

> IMHO, I would run kubuntu (ubuntu with KDE), but once that is installed I
> would install XFCE or one of the other low-overhead window managers.

If you are interested in proper translations of KDE, i.e. not English as GUI
language, I would not pick kubuntu since they still have a lot of issues with
that. There are other distros out there which do a better job in that regard.
Almost all of them offer current digikam packages.

openSUSE has live CDs others distros as well, so you can easily install all of
them and pick the one you like best. Getting the most recent digikam package
is not that difficult, in openSUSE you just have to enable the "UpdatedApps"
repo by clicking on a checkbox and select the digikam version you would like
to install in the software management afterwards. It will be similarly easy in
other distros as well. An advantage of openSUSE is that it offers all desktops
in one distro, i.e. Gnome, KDE, xfce, lxde etc.

Sven
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[Sveinn í Felli]

Þann fim  2.sep 2010 13:16, skrifaði Paul Verizzo:

>   You may recall that I'm going to probably use an old
> computer dedicated to digiKam on Linux - that's how much I
> love this thing! - in order to gain stability and faster
> updates. I don't recall the specifics, but it's an older,
> slower machine. It runs Windows 2000 OK, but the USB is 1.0,
> so that gives you some clue as to hardware level. It will
> have to do for now.
>
> So, what's the best distro for me? First, minimal overhead
> on the computer. I'm thinking one of the KDE based laptop or
> netbook distros. Does that make sense?

Hi,

I'm running several distros on a 6yrs old Intel Pentium
laptop 1600 Mhz with 1 Gb RAM, don't know if your specs are
much lower:

Ubuntu 10.10 runs fine, I don't use Digikam on that one. On
other machines I run Digikam flawlessly in Ubuntu/GNOME.

LinuxMint-9 runs Digikam 1.3 quite well, of course some
operations lag a bit, depends on filesize. A bit more RAM
would probably speed up things.
Upgrades are easy, most things come from the Ubuntu repos
anyway.
Some people say that Mint is an Ubuntu with cosmetic
changes, but those are also dealing with organisation and
priorities.
Let's say that Mint may be a bit more 'understandable' by
recent converts from Windows (even though it's green).

You'd inherit with both those distros the before-mentioned
translation problems from KDE-vs-*buntu love/hate
relationship - unless you take the step and learn how to
deal with .po's and .mo's and make your own translations
(which you then contribute to launchpad and KDE-upstream) ;-)

OpenSuse 11.2 KDE is a bit 'enterprise' oriented, quite
large 'footprint' but still decent responsiveness, has very
good internationalization support and well organized
configuration tools. Some people hate their yast2 admin
tool, but at least you can also run it in a sort of
graphical mode from shell if there are problems with display
drivers (and yes, my ATI has had problems).
Digikam 1.3 works much like in LinuxMint, if I wanted the
latest cutting-edge version, one has to activate the
'Factory', 'Factory:Desktop' and 'Extras' repositories.

I did have a partition with VectorLinux 6 KDE, which is a
sort of Slackware but with a package-manager which pulls all
dependencies for the source packages which are compiled on
that particular machine. So maybe there you'd get the most
specialized setup, with least pain. Not sure if there was
any 'automatic upgrades' feature.
Had to sacrifice this partition for a bigger data partition.

Have tried others on this machine; PCLinuxOS was nice except
for their horrible I18n support (charsets and stuff),
Mandriva is fine but had problems with adopting KDE
translations. Plain Debian I'd use on a server, same for
Fedora.

Had Win2k installed originally, it may have been possible to
run XP on it, but probably not Vista.

You really should give your Digikam installation some
resources (Why not VirtualBox?), the experience is not the
same on a low spec machine.
Don't know whether these take much resources.

Hope these points can be of help.

Best regards

Sveinn í Felli

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[David Talmage-2]

On Fri Sep  3  9:47 , Sveinn í Felli <[hidden email]> sent:

>Þann fim  2.sep 2010 13:16, skrifaði Paul Verizzo:
>>   You may recall that I'm going to probably use an old
>> computer dedicated to digiKam on Linux - that's how much I
>> love this thing! - in order to gain stability and faster
>> updates. I don't recall the specifics, but it's an older,
>> slower machine. It runs Windows 2000 OK, but the USB is 1.0,
>> so that gives you some clue as to hardware level. It will
>> have to do for now.
>>
>> So, what's the best distro for me? First, minimal overhead
>> on the computer. I'm thinking one of the KDE based laptop or
>> netbook distros. Does that make sense?
>
> ...
>You really should give your Digikam installation some
>resources (Why not VirtualBox?), the experience is not the
> ...

I want to offer a caution about VirtualBox.  I've used it for a year or more on a
Mac Mini OSX host with a Kubuntu guest OS.  It works well enough but you have to
be careful when you upgrade VirtualBox.  Almost every time there is a VirtualBox
upgrade, the Linux guest additions break and I lose access to host OS's file
system, where I store my photos.  Then I have to remember to reinstall the guest
additions.  The most recent update broke both X11 and the host file system
access.  Depending on which guest additions I install, I can use X11 (w/Ubuntu's
guest additions) or the host file system (with VirtualBox's guest additions) but
not both.  This last upgrade made me stop using VirtualBox.  I just bought a new
Toshiba R705 to run Kubuntu and Digikam.  It will replace my Mac Mini and my netbook.

David Talmage

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[gerlos]

Il giorno 03/set/2010, alle ore 16.56, David Talmage ha scritto:

>> You really should give your Digikam installation some
>> resources (Why not VirtualBox?), the experience is not the
>> ...
>
> I want to offer a caution about VirtualBox.  I've used it for a year or more on a
> Mac Mini OSX host with a Kubuntu guest OS.  It works well enough but you have to
> be careful when you upgrade VirtualBox.  Almost every time there is a VirtualBox
> upgrade, the Linux guest additions break and I lose access to host OS's file
> system, where I store my photos.  Then I have to remember to reinstall the guest
> additions.  The most recent update broke both X11 and the host file system
> access.  Depending on which guest additions I install, I can use X11 (w/Ubuntu's
> guest additions) or the host file system (with VirtualBox's guest additions) but
> not both.  This last upgrade made me stop using VirtualBox.  I just bought a new
> Toshiba R705 to run Kubuntu and Digikam.  It will replace my Mac Mini and my netbook.
>

I can't confirm these problems with Virtualbox-- my host systems are gnu/linux and my guest systems are windows xp/vista, and in general didn't get any problem with them when upgrading Virtualbox.

But I had problems when I leaved some machines in "saved" state, and then upgraded virtualbox: in these cases the virtual machine were unusable. I needed to remember to shut down the virtual machines *before* upgrading virtualbox (but I think it makes sense: don't you halt your OS before an hardware upgrade?) ;-)

Anyway (I know, someone can criticize this point), if it works, why you want to upgrade it? Just stay with what you know that works ;-)

But maybe we are going too much OT...

Anyway, it would be nice if we could define a rough list of minimum system requirements for digikam...

regards

--
"Life is pretty simple: You do some stuff. Most fails. Some works. You do more
of what works. If it works big, others quickly copy it. Then you do something
else. The trick is the doing something else."
           < http://gerlos.altervista.org >
 gerlos  +- - - >  gnu/linux registred user #311588

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