tags/keywords between Adobe Lightroom and Digikam

[Jim Dory-2]

Hello,

I'm still a photoshop user and have been trying out Lightroom as it
works well with photoshop. Hence, I'm running both in a Virtualbox
virtual machine.

For general importing of photos, tagging, viewing, and some
manipulation, I use Digikam. Have for quite some time. I don't
generally leave my Windows VM machine running, so if I want to use
Lightroom or photoshop I have to fire it up.

A few versions of Digikam back, I was doing a lot of tagging. I either
had tiff images from scans, jpegs from cheaper cameras, then CR2 files
from Canon that I converted to DNG before tagging. When I got
Lightroom, again a few versions back, it seemed to read all my tags
fine. In Lightroom I can search all those tags (keywords in LR) just
fine. But now (don't know if it is because of changes in newer
versions of one or both these fine programs) neither recognizes the
tags/keywords of the other no matter the image format.

I am not very smart on metadata.. have a hard time understanding that.
Is there something I need to set in one or both these programs that
will allow each to read the tags?

Also, regarding CR2 vs. DNG conversions, I'm sitting on the fence. It
seems backing up xmp files is convenient when changes have been made
to just raw files or metadata, vs. backing up the whole cr2. But DNG
is pretty convenient too. (I still keep all CR2 backed up on external
disk). Lightroom, when tagging CR2 files does create a xmp file.
Digikam does not seem to recognize that. When tagging a CR2 file in
Digikam, it doesn't seem to create an xmp file but must write the tag
somewhere else.. metadata? or database?. Regardless, Lightroom doesn't
see it.

So at some point I may decide to work with just one of these programs
but would like to make sure if I tag in one, I wouldn't then have to
redo it all should I choose the other program. So this question is for
my convenience, but perhaps if someone can help it will help others
too. I did look back several pages in archives but didn't stumble upon
the answer.

cheers, Jim
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[Andrew Goodbody]

Hi Jim,

First off, AFAICT the conversion to DNG from CR2 provides no benefit at
all. The support for CR2 is available to work on them directly. The
conversion to DNG uses that same code, so the conversion is just an
extra step in the process. Add to that the issues over interpreting
manufacturer specific metadata and it seems best to me to just use CR2
files.

Secondly, what version of digikam are you using? If it is pre-2.x then
there is no .xmp sidecar support. Tags for CR2 files will only appear in
the digikam database which will be invisible to PS/LR. Tags written by
PS/LR to .xmp files will be invisible to digikam. If you are using then
2.x then you may need to switch on .xmp support, but I am not sure how
useable that is yet. Maybe others can comment on that.

Andrew
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[Jim Dory-2]

Hi Andrew,

Many thanks for the info.

I'm using DK 2.4.1 on KDE 4.7.4, if that helps.

I had been converting to DNG, but lately questioning whether I want
that extra step. So good to hear your opinion about it.

In DK I under Settings/configure digikam/Metadata I'm looking at
"Write Metadata to RAW files" which is checked and under that is Read
Metadata from XMP sidecar files" which is greyed out- unable to check.
Maybe it is dependent on another item being checked/unchecked.
Otherwise I'm not seeing where that would be.

cheers, Jim

On Sat, Dec 31, 2011 at 1:50 AM, Andrew Goodbody <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Jim,
>
> First off, AFAICT the conversion to DNG from CR2 provides no benefit at all.
> The support for CR2 is available to work on them directly. The conversion to
> DNG uses that same code, so the conversion is just an extra step in the
> process. Add to that the issues over interpreting manufacturer specific
> metadata and it seems best to me to just use CR2 files.
>
> Secondly, what version of digikam are you using? If it is pre-2.x then there
> is no .xmp sidecar support. Tags for CR2 files will only appear in the
> digikam database which will be invisible to PS/LR. Tags written by PS/LR to
> .xmp files will be invisible to digikam. If you are using then 2.x then you
> may need to switch on .xmp support, but I am not sure how useable that is
> yet. Maybe others can comment on that.
>
> Andrew
> _______________________________________________
> Digikam-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/digikam-users

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[ozzyprv]

This is a piece of info I previously posted in this mail list:
"... Elle, just out of curiosity. What do you have against DNG? The way I see DNG's is as a secure way to store your negatives. I use Canon, so if one day Canon decides to stop supporting cr2 format I already have my negatives in an open-source digital negative format."

DNG is an open source format. CR2 is not. I keep converting all my CR2 files to DNG. An extra step that gives me some added piece of mind.

On Dec 31, 2011 4:06 AM, "Jim Dory" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Andrew,

Many thanks for the info.

I'm using DK 2.4.1 on KDE 4.7.4, if that helps.

I had been converting to DNG, but lately questioning whether I want
that extra step. So good to hear your opinion about it.

In DK I under Settings/configure digikam/Metadata I'm looking at
"Write Metadata to RAW files" which is checked and under that is Read
Metadata from XMP sidecar files" which is greyed out- unable to check.
Maybe it is dependent on another item being checked/unchecked.
Otherwise I'm not seeing where that would be.

cheers, Jim

On Sat, Dec 31, 2011 at 1:50 AM, Andrew Goodbody <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi Jim,
>
> First off, AFAICT the conversion to DNG from CR2 provides no benefit at all.
> The support for CR2 is available to work on them directly. The conversion to
> DNG uses that same code, so the conversion is just an extra step in the
> process. Add to that the issues over interpreting manufacturer specific
> metadata and it seems best to me to just use CR2 files.
>
> Secondly, what version of digikam are you using? If it is pre-2.x then there
> is no .xmp sidecar support. Tags for CR2 files will only appear in the
> digikam database which will be invisible to PS/LR. Tags written by PS/LR to
> .xmp files will be invisible to digikam. If you are using then 2.x then you
> may need to switch on .xmp support, but I am not sure how useable that is
> yet. Maybe others can comment on that.
>
> Andrew
> _______________________________________________
> Digikam-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/digikam-users
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[Andrew Goodbody]

On 01/01/12 18:30, Ozzy wrote:
> This is a piece of info I previously posted in this mail list:
> "... Elle, just out of curiosity. What do you have against DNG? The way
> I see DNG's is as a secure way to store your negatives. I use Canon, so
> if one day Canon decides to stop supporting cr2 format I already have my
> negatives in an open-source digital negative format."

CR2 is supported already by open source programs. I do not need Canon to
continue support for CR2, the open source community has already stepped
up and developed the support. There is no program that I want to use
that will accept DNG and not CR2. Canon's continued support or not is
irrelevant.

> DNG is an open source format. CR2 is not. I keep converting all my CR2
> files to DNG. An extra step that gives me some added piece of mind.

The conversion of CR2 to DNG is not perfect. Particularly manufacturer
metadata is not well supported. So you are losing information by doing
the conversion unless you are embedding the original CR2 in the DNG in
which case you are just doubling the storage needs. The support for CR2
by open source may improve in the future in which case using the
original CR2 will benefit from that. If you have already converted to
DNG, then you will not benefit from future improvements.

Conversion of CR2 to DNG provides no benefit and has known down sides.
Why would that give you peace of mind?

Andrew
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[Andrew Goodbody]

On 31/12/11 11:05, Jim Dory wrote:

> Hi Andrew,
>
> Many thanks for the info.
>
> I'm using DK 2.4.1 on KDE 4.7.4, if that helps.
>
> I had been converting to DNG, but lately questioning whether I want
> that extra step. So good to hear your opinion about it.
>
> In DK I under Settings/configure digikam/Metadata I'm looking at
> "Write Metadata to RAW files" which is checked and under that is Read
> Metadata from XMP sidecar files" which is greyed out- unable to check.
> Maybe it is dependent on another item being checked/unchecked.
> Otherwise I'm not seeing where that would be.
>
> cheers, Jim

I was hoping that someone else would step in to answer this now. I use
1.9.0 at the moment. I do however have a VM with 2.3.0 on XP. There that
option is not greyed out for me. I hope someone else can explain why it
may be greyed out for you.

Andrew
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[jag59]

ozzyprv wrote

DNG is an open source format.

AFAIK DNG is 'free', not 'open source'. 'open raw' is open source but not widely used and widely accepted by camera manufacturers.

As already mentioned in earlier post, if your raw format .CR2, .NEF etc. is supported by open source, then there is no need of DNG because of it's disadvantages and draw backs.

[jag59]

Jim Dory-2 wrote

A few versions of Digikam back, I was doing a lot of tagging. I either
had tiff images from scans, jpegs from cheaper cameras, then CR2 files
from Canon that I converted to DNG before tagging. When I got
Lightroom, again a few versions back, it seemed to read all my tags
fine. In Lightroom I can search all those tags (keywords in LR) just
fine. But now (don't know if it is because of changes in newer
versions of one or both these fine programs) neither recognizes the
tags/keywords of the other no matter the image format.


So at some point I may decide to work with just one of these programs
but would like to make sure if I tag in one, I wouldn't then have to
redo it all should I choose the other program. So this question is for
my convenience, but perhaps if someone can help it will help others
too. I did look back several pages in archives but didn't stumble upon
the answer.

cheers, Jim
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This is not exactly an answer, but I would like to mention that---
Darktable is a Linux alternative for Lightroom. It is available only for Linux. It uses sidecar .xmp, but yet I have not confirmed whether digiKam reads properly the tags from darktable's sidecars. I am with DK 1.9 whereas sidecar support in DK is in 2.x version, moreover I have read that it (the sidecar support in DK) is going to be marked as 'experimental' presently.

Darktable developers are going to add 'area selection' tool shortly which will improve it's functionality to a professional software.

Best luck.

[Gilles Caulier-4]

Since 2.0.0, digiKam support import and export of Lightroom tags. This
is done through metadata (from image or XMP sidecar)

Code relevant is here :

- reading :

https://projects.kde.org/projects/extragear/graphics/digikam/repository/revisions/master/entry/libs/dmetadata/dmetadata.cpp#L1134

- writing :

https://projects.kde.org/projects/extragear/graphics/digikam/repository/revisions/master/entry/libs/dmetadata/dmetadata.cpp#L1190

Note : LR tag from XMP is Xmp.lr.hierarchicalSubject

Gilles Caulier

2012/1/2 jag59 <[hidden email]>:

>
> Jim Dory-2 wrote
>>
>>
>>
>> A few versions of Digikam back, I was doing a lot of tagging. I either
>> had tiff images from scans, jpegs from cheaper cameras, then CR2 files
>> from Canon that I converted to DNG before tagging. When I got
>> Lightroom, again a few versions back, it seemed to read all my tags
>> fine. In Lightroom I can search all those tags (keywords in LR) just
>> fine. But now (don't know if it is because of changes in newer
>> versions of one or both these fine programs) neither recognizes the
>> tags/keywords of the other no matter the image format.
>>
>>
>> So at some point I may decide to work with just one of these programs
>> but would like to make sure if I tag in one, I wouldn't then have to
>> redo it all should I choose the other program. So this question is for
>> my convenience, but perhaps if someone can help it will help others
>> too. I did look back several pages in archives but didn't stumble upon
>> the answer.
>>
>> cheers, Jim
>> _______________________________________________
>> Digikam-users mailing list
>> Digikam-users@
>> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/digikam-users
>>
>
> This is not exactly an answer, but I would like to mention that---
> Darktable is a Linux alternative for Lightroom. It is available only for
> Linux. It uses sidecar .xmp, but yet I have not confirmed whether digiKam
> reads properly the tags from darktable's sidecars. I am with DK 1.9 whereas
> sidecar support in DK is in 2.x version, moreover I have read that it (the
> sidecar support in DK) is going to be marked as 'experimental' presently.
>
> Darktable developers are going to add 'area selection' tool shortly which
> will improve it's functionality to a professional software.
>
> Best luck.
>
>
> -----
> Jagdeesh Deshpande.
> Registered Linux user #492893
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://digikam.1695700.n4.nabble.com/tags-keywords-between-Adobe-Lightroom-and-Digikam-tp4247768p4253053.html
> Sent from the digikam-users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> _______________________________________________
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[tosca]

That's great news ... for LR users. Is there something similar for Darktable (for those of us that use Linux 100%)?

Marie-Noëlle

2012/1/2 Gilles Caulier <[hidden email]>

Since 2.0.0, digiKam support import and export of Lightroom tags. This
is done through metadata (from image or XMP sidecar)

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[Ivan Tarozzi]

Il 02/01/2012 13:48, Marie-Noëlle Augendre ha scritto:
> That's great news ... for LR users. Is there something similar for
> Darktable (for those of us that use Linux 100%)?
>

+1

I use darktable as favorite RAW developer software but I prefer digikam
tagging and DAM features. So I'd like to set up a workflow envolving
this 2 great software!

Ivan
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[tosca]

2012/1/2 Ivan Tarozzi <[hidden email]>

Il 02/01/2012 13:48, Marie-Noëlle Augendre ha scritto:

That's great news ... for LR users. Is there something similar for
Darktable (for those of us that use Linux 100%)?

+1

I use darktable as favorite RAW developer software but I prefer digikam tagging and DAM features. So I'd like to set up a workflow envolving this 2 great software!

Ivan

+1 * 100

I'm looking forward to this great improvment.
Marie-Noëlle
 

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[Karl Günter Wünsch]

On 02/01/12 13:48, Marie-Noëlle Augendre wrote:
> That's great news ... for LR users. Is there something similar for
> Darktable (for those of us that use Linux 100%)?
Have a look at rawtherapee as well. It's well beyond anything Darktable
can do in terms of processing RAW images... IIRC XMP support is
currently being added properly to rawtherapee, so digikam just needs to
be able to support this.
regards
Karl Günter
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[Ivan Tarozzi]

Il 02/01/2012 14:19, Karl Günter Wünsch ha scritto:
> On 02/01/12 13:48, Marie-Noëlle Augendre wrote:
>> That's great news ... for LR users. Is there something similar for
>> Darktable (for those of us that use Linux 100%)?
> Have a look at rawtherapee as well. It's well beyond anything Darktable
> can do in terms of processing RAW images... IIRC XMP support is
> currently being added properly to rawtherapee, so digikam just needs to
> be able to support this.
> regards
> Karl Günter

May be RT is another of great piece of software, but I feel better with
darktable :)

So, your is not a real response :)
If I ask about integration with softwareA, you can't tell me to use
softwareB ;)


Ivan
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[tosca]

2012/1/2 Ivan Tarozzi <[hidden email]>

Il 02/01/2012 14:19, Karl Günter Wünsch ha scritto:

On 02/01/12 13:48, Marie-Noëlle Augendre wrote:

That's great news ... for LR users. Is there something similar for
Darktable (for those of us that use Linux 100%)?

Have a look at rawtherapee as well. It's well beyond anything Darktable
can do in terms of processing RAW images... IIRC XMP support is
currently being added properly to rawtherapee, so digikam just needs to
be able to support this.
regards
Karl Günter

May be RT is another of great piece of software, but I feel better with darktable :)

Same for me: I began with RawTherapee, because Darktable seems quite complicate to begin with; but I switched to Darktable  a few weeks ago, and there is no going back! Morevoer, the team is very dynamic, and functionalities are expending quickly.
 

Marie-Noëlle

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[Martin (KDE)]

Am 02.01.2012 15:53, schrieb Marie-Noëlle Augendre:

>
>
> 2012/1/2 Ivan Tarozzi <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>
>     Il 02/01/2012 14:19, Karl Günter Wünsch ha scritto:
>
>         On 02/01/12 13:48, Marie-Noëlle Augendre wrote:
>
>             That's great news ... for LR users. Is there something
>             similar for
>             Darktable (for those of us that use Linux 100%)?
>
>         Have a look at rawtherapee as well. It's well beyond anything
>         Darktable
>         can do in terms of processing RAW images... IIRC XMP support is
>         currently being added properly to rawtherapee, so digikam just
>         needs to
>         be able to support this.
>         regards
>         Karl Günter
>
>
>     May be RT is another of great piece of software, but I feel better
>     with darktable :)
>
>
> Same for me: I began with RawTherapee, because Darktable seems quite
> complicate to begin with; but I switched to Darktable  a few weeks ago,
> and there is no going back! Morevoer, the team is very dynamic, and
> functionalities are expending quickly.

I second that. I use darktable since about one year now and am really
pleased with the results and the performance (development and the
program itself). I try rawtherapee every now and then and it is a fine
peace of software. But I am used to darktables handling.

As I only shot raw photos since using darktable I changed my operation
method a little bit:

- import photos with digikam (renaming and simmilar stuuf included)
- first raw process step with darktable
- export to jpeg with darktable
- tagging with digikam (jpeg and raw, raw in digikam db only).

If there is a need to change some parameters in darktable I adjust them
and export the affected pictures once again (gets _01 append to the
basename). After that I run a script which copies the exif data from the
old jpeg to the new one and replace the old jpeg with the new one.

If I have to do some final stuff I export the photo into png and do it
mostly in gimp. But management is still done in digikam.

Martin

>  
> Marie-Noëlle
>
> --
> Une galerie photos, un blog ... pourquoi pas ? Webmaster en herbe
> <http://www.webmaster-en-herbe.net/>
>
> Parcourez les Cévennes à ma façon : Cévennes Plurielles
> <http://www.cevennes-plurielles.com/>
>
> Et toutes mes autres publications à partir de ma page d'accueil générale
> <http://www.marie-noelle-augendre.com/>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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[Ivan Tarozzi]

Il 02/01/2012 17:55, Martin (KDE) ha scritto:
[cut]

> As I only shot raw photos since using darktable I changed my operation
> method a little bit:
>
> - import photos with digikam (renaming and simmilar stuuf included)
> - first raw process step with darktable
> - export to jpeg with darktable
> - tagging with digikam (jpeg and raw, raw in digikam db only).
>
> If there is a need to change some parameters in darktable I adjust them
> and export the affected pictures once again (gets _01 append to the
> basename). After that I run a script which copies the exif data from the
> old jpeg to the new one and replace the old jpeg with the new one.
>
> If I have to do some final stuff I export the photo into png and do it
> mostly in gimp. But management is still done in digikam.
>
>

Thanks for describe your workflow!

What about open a dedicate thread about darktable-digikam workflow to
share our experiences and doubt? I also have a similar approach, but I
still having some problem to talk about :)

Ivan
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[Martin (KDE)]

Am 02.01.2012 18:05, schrieb Ivan Tarozzi:

> Il 02/01/2012 17:55, Martin (KDE) ha scritto:
> [cut]
>
>> As I only shot raw photos since using darktable I changed my operation
>> method a little bit:
>>
>> - import photos with digikam (renaming and simmilar stuuf included)
>> - first raw process step with darktable
>> - export to jpeg with darktable
>> - tagging with digikam (jpeg and raw, raw in digikam db only).
>>
>> If there is a need to change some parameters in darktable I adjust them
>> and export the affected pictures once again (gets _01 append to the
>> basename). After that I run a script which copies the exif data from the
>> old jpeg to the new one and replace the old jpeg with the new one.
>>
>> If I have to do some final stuff I export the photo into png and do it
>> mostly in gimp. But management is still done in digikam.
>>
>>
> Thanks for describe your workflow!
>
> What about open a dedicate thread about darktable-digikam workflow to
> share our experiences and doubt? I also have a similar approach, but I
> still having some problem to talk about :)

No problem. Do so.

Martin

>
> Ivan
> _______________________________________________
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[Andrew Goodbody]

OK, Gilles, but this does not explain why Jim cannot enable reading from
.xmp sidecar in his digikam, that option is greyed out for him.

Andrew

On 02/01/12 12:36, Gilles Caulier wrote:

> Since 2.0.0, digiKam support import and export of Lightroom tags. This
> is done through metadata (from image or XMP sidecar)
>
> Code relevant is here :
>
> - reading :
>
> https://projects.kde.org/projects/extragear/graphics/digikam/repository/revisions/master/entry/libs/dmetadata/dmetadata.cpp#L1134
>
> - writing :
>
> https://projects.kde.org/projects/extragear/graphics/digikam/repository/revisions/master/entry/libs/dmetadata/dmetadata.cpp#L1190
>
> Note : LR tag from XMP is Xmp.lr.hierarchicalSubject
>
> Gilles Caulier
>
> 2012/1/2 jag59<[hidden email]>:
>>
>> Jim Dory-2 wrote
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> A few versions of Digikam back, I was doing a lot of tagging. I either
>>> had tiff images from scans, jpegs from cheaper cameras, then CR2 files
>>> from Canon that I converted to DNG before tagging. When I got
>>> Lightroom, again a few versions back, it seemed to read all my tags
>>> fine. In Lightroom I can search all those tags (keywords in LR) just
>>> fine. But now (don't know if it is because of changes in newer
>>> versions of one or both these fine programs) neither recognizes the
>>> tags/keywords of the other no matter the image format.
>>>
>>>
>>> So at some point I may decide to work with just one of these programs
>>> but would like to make sure if I tag in one, I wouldn't then have to
>>> redo it all should I choose the other program. So this question is for
>>> my convenience, but perhaps if someone can help it will help others
>>> too. I did look back several pages in archives but didn't stumble upon
>>> the answer.
>>>
>>> cheers, Jim
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Digikam-users mailing list
>>> Digikam-users@
>>> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/digikam-users
>>>
>>
>> This is not exactly an answer, but I would like to mention that---
>> Darktable is a Linux alternative for Lightroom. It is available only for
>> Linux. It uses sidecar .xmp, but yet I have not confirmed whether digiKam
>> reads properly the tags from darktable's sidecars. I am with DK 1.9 whereas
>> sidecar support in DK is in 2.x version, moreover I have read that it (the
>> sidecar support in DK) is going to be marked as 'experimental' presently.
>>
>> Darktable developers are going to add 'area selection' tool shortly which
>> will improve it's functionality to a professional software.
>>
>> Best luck.
>>
>>
>> -----
>> Jagdeesh Deshpande.
>> Registered Linux user #492893
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context: http://digikam.1695700.n4.nabble.com/tags-keywords-between-Adobe-Lightroom-and-Digikam-tp4247768p4253053.html
>> Sent from the digikam-users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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