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problems with ICC profiles

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Gerhard Kulzer

Re: problems with ICC profiles

On Friday 19 May 2006 18:32, Daniel Bauer wrote:

> Am Freitag, 19. Mai 2006 16:48 schrieb Gilles Caulier:
> > On Friday 19 May 2006 03:08 pm, Daniel Bauer wrote:
> > > Can you tell me what settings you entered in digikam (in raw image
> > > decoding options and ICC settings), please?
> >
> > Screenshots sent in private, images (c) from Daniel (:=)))...
> >
> > Gilles
>
> As already said in PM: thank you very much, Gilles!
>
> I achieved the same result in 0.9.0 svn. It is not bad, but it is not
> perfect yet ;-) but at least a great step ahead :-)
>
> I have put samples of this pictures here:
>
> 1) photo as the canon-program on Win98 made it without any corrections
> (then saved as 16bit-TIFF and resized and saved as jpg with photoshop 5.0):
> http://www.daniel-bauer.com/test/6057_09_canon.jpg
>
> 2) same picture in 0.9.0 svn with setting as shown by you (resized and
> saved as jpg within digikam 0.9.0):
> http://www.daniel-bauer.com/test/6057_009_editor.jpg
>
> 3) same, then with "automatic color correction" by digikam:
> http://www.daniel-bauer.com/test/6057_009_automatic.jpg
>
> I think, the "canon" ist the most "vivid" one. What do you think?
>
> Daniel
>

Well IMHO 3) is the best. Ts shows the most nuances/depths, look at the
wrinkles in the sheets, its has the best 3D effect and clarity to me. I'm
less certain about the hue, only the one who knows the source can judge..

Gerhard
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Gerhard Kulzer

Re: problems with ICC profiles

In reply to this post by Gilles Caulier-2

On Friday 19 May 2006 14:42, Gilles Caulier wrote:

> On Friday 19 May 2006 01:16 pm, Daniel Bauer wrote:
> > Am Freitag, 19. Mai 2006 12:40 schrieb Gilles Caulier:
> > > Daniel, put me some RAW files somewhere to download, i will trying to
> > > perform tests...
> >
> > Thank you very much!
> > I'll send the URL in a PM (you can share the picture with other
> > developpers, but not puplic... :-)
>
> I have tried to use all icc profile from bibblepro program available for
> linux for testing. you can download it :
>
> http://www.bibblelabs.com
>
> This software includes camera/workspace profiles witch work fine under
> digiKam :
>
> $ pwd
> /usr/lib/bibblelabs/bibblepro/profiles
> $ ls
> Adobe.icm canonb.icm DCSRGB.icm kodak1.icm
> mvx900.icm nnhighnormal.icm olysp.icm
> Apple.icm canonc.icm DefaultMonitor.icm kodak2.icm
> nikon1.icm nnlin.icm PAL.icm
> bruce.icm canond.icm epson1.icm kodak3.icm
> nikon2.icm nnlow2.icm panasonic1.icm
> canon1.icm canone.icm er1.icm KODAK_sRGB.icm
> nikon3.icm nnlowfinal.icm pentax1.icm
> canon2.icm c.icm er2.icm lab.icm
> nikon4.icm nnlownormal.icm ProPhotoRGB.icm
> canon3.icm CIE.icm er3.icm LinearRGB.icm
> nikon5.icm nnnormfinal.icm rimm.icm
> canon4.icm ColorMatch.icm er4.icm lin.icm
> nikon6.icm normfinal.icm SMPTE-C.icm
> canon5.icm DCSPortraitGrayscale.icm er5.icm low2.icm
> nikon7.icm NTSC.icm sony1.icm
> canon6.icm DCSPortraitLook.icm ERIMM_PCS3.icm lowfinal.icm
> nikonb.icm oly1.icm sRGB Color Space Profile.icm
> canon7.icm DCSPortraitLookRed.icm fuji1.icm lownormal.icm
> nikonc.icm oly2.icm srgb.icm
> canon8.icm DCSProductGrayscale.icm high2.icm mac.icm
> nklab.icm oly3.icm WideGamut.icm
> canon9.icm DCSProductLook.icm highfinal.icm minolta1.icm
> nnhigh2.icm oly4.icm znorm.icm
> canona.icm DCSProductLookRed.icm highnormal.icm minolta3.icm
> nnhighfinal.icm oly5.icm
> [gilles@cea-tir8 profiles]$
>
> For example, you can try all canon*.icm files using Color management plugin
> for digikam image editor to select the right file to use in ICC workflow...
>
> Gilles

I installed the program bibblepro and tried the profiles with digiKam plus the
lysator 10d profile. In all cases the ICC diagram remains a circle in the
center. Comparing to the source (my memory in that case) and the jpeg file
(because I shot in raw mode including jpeg), the canon6.icm looks very good
to me - after applying auto color correction->stretch contrast it was perfect
for 350D.

Gerhard
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Gilles Caulier-2

Re: problems with ICC profiles

In reply to this post by Daniel Bauer-2

Le Vendredi 19 Mai 2006 06:32 PM, Daniel Bauer a écrit :

yes, it's normal, the histogram use all space available with auto-correction
(I suspect auto levels)

Gilles
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Gilles Caulier-2

Re: problems with ICC profiles

In reply to this post by Gerhard Kulzer

Le Vendredi 19 Mai 2006 07:41 PM, Gerhard Kulzer a écrit :

> On Friday 19 May 2006 18:32, Daniel Bauer wrote:
> > Am Freitag, 19. Mai 2006 16:48 schrieb Gilles Caulier:
> > > On Friday 19 May 2006 03:08 pm, Daniel Bauer wrote:
> > > > Can you tell me what settings you entered in digikam (in raw image
> > > > decoding options and ICC settings), please?
> > >
> > > Screenshots sent in private, images (c) from Daniel (:=)))...
> > >
> > > Gilles
> >
> > As already said in PM: thank you very much, Gilles!
> >
> > I achieved the same result in 0.9.0 svn. It is not bad, but it is not
> > perfect yet ;-) but at least a great step ahead :-)
> >
> > I have put samples of this pictures here:
> >
> > 1) photo as the canon-program on Win98 made it without any corrections
> > (then saved as 16bit-TIFF and resized and saved as jpg with photoshop
> > 5.0): http://www.daniel-bauer.com/test/6057_09_canon.jpg
> >
> > 2) same picture in 0.9.0 svn with setting as shown by you (resized and
> > saved as jpg within digikam 0.9.0):
> > http://www.daniel-bauer.com/test/6057_009_editor.jpg
> >
> > 3) same, then with "automatic color correction" by digikam:
> > http://www.daniel-bauer.com/test/6057_009_automatic.jpg
> >
> > I think, the "canon" ist the most "vivid" one. What do you think?
> >
> > Daniel
>
> Well IMHO 3) is the best. Ts shows the most nuances/depths, look at the
> wrinkles in the sheets, its has the best 3D effect and clarity to me. I'm
> less certain about the hue, only the one who knows the source can judge..

Yes.

Gerhard,

About handbook, ICC profile settings and RAW workflow need to be explained
very well. It's not a simple task to do. I have some idea. We will do it at
the right moment, later. I need to have a clear mind (:=)))

But to resume this thread, we can said tha sometimes camera maker profiles
work fine (Minolta for example), sometimes no and investigations are require
to find the right files.

Other susject that nobody have talk in this thread is the icc profile file
auto-selection, according with 'make' and 'model' Exif tags (like UFRAW has
planed to do)

This way require a camera icc files repository with all camera profiles that
the digiKam users need to use (if he has more that one camera)

A setup table is require where the user set witch profile need to be use with
'make/model' Exif tags found in image (JPEG, RAW, TIFF/EP). When you start
image editor, digiKam look in this table and choose the right profile
automaticly.

I have planed to do it later 0.9.0

Gilles
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Daniel Bauer-2

Re: problems with ICC profiles

In reply to this post by Gerhard Kulzer

Am Freitag, 19. Mai 2006 19:41 schrieb Gerhard Kulzer:

> > I have put samples of this pictures here:
> >
> > 1) photo as the canon-program on Win98 made it without any corrections
> > (then saved as 16bit-TIFF and resized and saved as jpg with photoshop
> > 5.0): http://www.daniel-bauer.com/test/6057_09_canon.jpg
> >
> > 2) same picture in 0.9.0 svn with setting as shown by you (resized and
> > saved as jpg within digikam 0.9.0):
> > http://www.daniel-bauer.com/test/6057_009_editor.jpg
> >
> > 3) same, then with "automatic color correction" by digikam:
> > http://www.daniel-bauer.com/test/6057_009_automatic.jpg
> >
> > I think, the "canon" ist the most "vivid" one. What do you think?
> >
> > Daniel
>
> Well IMHO 3) is the best. Ts shows the most nuances/depths, look at the
> wrinkles in the sheets, its has the best 3D effect and clarity to me. I'm
> less certain about the hue, only the one who knows the source can judge..
>
> Gerhard

Yes, looking at the sheet, then 3) looks best. This is an optical effect due
to enhanced contrast and slightly darker. But the hue is too "greenish" and
details in the shadows (hair, bra, shoes) drop. So compared to the original
no. 1) comes closest.

I've played around with different combinations of the bibblelabs profiles and
I have the general impression that there's almost always too much green, but
I'll have to take more time for more serious testing. Soon.

At least now the basic problem is solved for me. Now it all depends on finding
(or making?) the right profiles.

Gilles:

when I play with color->color management and choose a "wrong" profile (like an
input device profile for working space) digikam crashes. Is this a bug, shall
I report it to the bugs list, or a problem of my install? The crash is
reproducable here.

have a nice evening, and again: thanks for the help!

Daniel

--
Daniel Bauer photographer Basel Switzerland
professional photography: http://www.daniel-bauer.com
special interest site: http://www.bauer-nudes.com
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F.J.Cruz

Re: problems with ICC profiles

In reply to this post by Gilles Caulier-2

El Viernes, 19 de Mayo de 2006 14:06, escribió:

> On Friday 19 May 2006 01:37 pm, Gerhard Kulzer wrote:
> > On Friday 19 May 2006 13:16, Daniel Bauer wrote:
> > > Am Freitag, 19. Mai 2006 12:40 schrieb Gilles Caulier:
> > > > Daniel, put me some RAW files somewhere to download, i will trying to
> > > > perform tests...
> > >
> > > Thank you very much!
> > > I'll send the URL in a PM (you can share the picture with other
> > > developpers, but not puplic... :-)
> > >
> > > > Also, witch LCms library version you use in your system ?
> > > >
> > > > Gilles
> > >
> > > liblcms 1.14-4 i586 Suse 10.0 rpm
> > > locate says:
> > > /usr/lib/liblcms.la
> > > /usr/lib/liblcms.so
> > > /usr/lib/liblcms.so.1
> > > /usr/lib/liblcms.so.1.0.14
> >
> > Gilles, I have the same problems as Daniel (using liblcms 1.0.15 and
> > EOS-350D). I have the dark pictures since ever I use svn 0.9 version. I
> > thought up to now that this was still in development, but now I agree we
> > should solve the problem (Canon DSLR is very popular). Maybe it is a
> > Canon specific problem. But why does ufraw not have it?
> > The result of digiKam is exactly the same as if I apply dcraw on the
> > command line without color management.
>
> Gerhard, you said that you can use these profile under ufraw...
>
> To have tested the Canon Icc profiles on my computer, nothing work properly
> in digiKam _AND_ ufraw (0.5 here) !
>
> If i set a Canon profile in digiKam setup, and I display the colors gamut
> graph, there is no CIE 1931 chromaticity diagram available (no white
> triangle in fact). This is why we have a black image in digiKam image
> editor. Look in wikipedia for more info about Gamut :
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamut
>
> I don't know what is wrong exactly with this profile, but we cannot used
> these files properly under linux. Paco, if you have some explainations,
> please let's me here (:=)))
>

We have to remember that there are some manufacturers that don't carry out
with the standard from the ICC. Perhaps we can know something else about this
profile with some of the lprof tools (http://lprof.sourceforge.net/).

Paco

> BUT, with your Canon camera, you can use the linear profile available here
> (public domain!) :
>
> http://www.lysator.liu.se/~ture/eos10d/
>
> It work fine under linux (digikam & ufraw) !!! I have tested this one with
> Daniel image (very nice (:=)))...
>
> Gilles
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Duncan Hill-5

Re: problems with ICC profiles

In reply to this post by Daniel Bauer-2

Daniel Bauer wrote:

> 1) photo as the canon-program on Win98 made it without any corrections (then
> http://www.daniel-bauer.com/test/6057_09_canon.jpg
>
> 2) same picture in 0.9.0 svn with setting as shown by you (resized and saved
> http://www.daniel-bauer.com/test/6057_009_editor.jpg
>
> 3) same, then with "automatic color correction" by digikam:
> http://www.daniel-bauer.com/test/6057_009_automatic.jpg

To me...

1 looks overblown - the detail of the white duvet is missing. Could
argue that the model is the focus, not the duvet.

2 is much less overblown, 3 is slightly more overblown than 2, but less
than 1. 3 has a green tint (based on the paneling and her armpit), 2
has a bit of it, but not as bad.

The flesh tones in 1 are probably more accurate (having never met the
model, I can't say for sure).

I'd be curious to see what RawShooter essentials (Windows, don't know if
it runs on 98) makes of the shot.

But yes, I'd pick 1 as the usable one right now - while it appears
overblown, the colour balance is better. With 2 and 3, the eyes appear
sunken and brooding.
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