Processing RAW images to get to the look of the jpg preview

[S. Burmeister]

Am Freitag, 24. Juni 2011, 09:48:29 schrieb David Vincent-Jones:
> Without feedback information from the image, I find that, curves are
> only able to 'generalize' tonal changes. This is fine typically for
> overall contrast changes or changes to major tone areas.

Yes, that's the most common use-case.

> Digikam has an excellent selection of ways (3) to use curves that does
> allow for very localized changes but ....  having lost the image
> feedback it is virtually impossible to accurately pick the point that is
> relevant to ones needs and resorting to 'hunt and peck' methods is more
> than frustrating. Possibly you have missed that in the basic DK mode
> (after a 'reset' and without clicking either option button) 'regional'
> changes that you are looking for are easily achieved.

As written in another email I now found how to deal with the curve and get rid
of the many points in order to get a smooth curve. Thanks for the hint. the
reset (for the curve only) etc. are missing in the demosaicing module though.

And I still think that some presets that automatically consider the camera the
picture was taken with would help those starting with RAW a lot and give them
a good starting point to manipulate the curve further to their needs.

And of course, there is the issue of not being able to save the curve's
settings, so if one has more than one camera, one has to change it manually
every time instead of simply loading a profile one saved before.

> For black and white work, where I believe tonal adjustments are for me
> far more critical, I use rawstudio where I can make intelligent
> adjustments on localized areas of the curve.

I'm afraid I'm too much of a beginner regarding RAW in order to be able to add
something to black and white.

Sven
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[david-vj]

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[Rinus]

Op 24-06-11 11:11, Sven Burmeister schreef:

> Am Freitag, 24. Juni 2011, 09:48:29 schrieb David Vincent-Jones:
>> Without feedback information from the image, I find that, curves are
>> only able to 'generalize' tonal changes. This is fine typically for
>> overall contrast changes or changes to major tone areas.
> Yes, that's the most common use-case.
>
>> Digikam has an excellent selection of ways (3) to use curves that does
>> allow for very localized changes but ....  having lost the image
>> feedback it is virtually impossible to accurately pick the point that is
>> relevant to ones needs and resorting to 'hunt and peck' methods is more
>> than frustrating. Possibly you have missed that in the basic DK mode
>> (after a 'reset' and without clicking either option button) 'regional'
>> changes that you are looking for are easily achieved.
> As written in another email I now found how to deal with the curve and get rid
> of the many points in order to get a smooth curve. Thanks for the hint. the
> reset (for the curve only) etc. are missing in the demosaicing module though.
>
> And I still think that some presets that automatically consider the camera the
> picture was taken with would help those starting with RAW a lot and give them
> a good starting point to manipulate the curve further to their needs.
>
> And of course, there is the issue of not being able to save the curve's
> settings, so if one has more than one camera, one has to change it manually
> every time instead of simply loading a profile one saved before.

Yes you can in 2.0.0 beta 6. There is an option save and load beneath
the curves. You can actually look in darktable for the curve that your
camera uses (if it is listed), mimick the curve in digikam and save it
to reuse every time you want.

Rinus

>> For black and white work, where I believe tonal adjustments are for me
>> far more critical, I use rawstudio where I can make intelligent
>> adjustments on localized areas of the curve.
> I'm afraid I'm too much of a beginner regarding RAW in order to be able to add
> something to black and white.
>
> Sven
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[S. Burmeister]

Am Donnerstag, 23. Juni 2011, 11:48:20 schrieb Martin:
> I don't think your problem is gamma only. The gamma curve only depends
> on the colour model you use to view the picture (sRBG, Adobe RBG,
> Apple RGB ...). It should almost never be necessary to adjust this by
> hand. But I have no clue what the problem of digikam is here.

Could you please try the digikam demosaicing tool with highlights set to
"blend" or "rebuild". I tried to avoid the gamma setting (1,7) but while it
works without gamma and adjusting the luminosity curve for most parts of the
picture, areas that are almost black (dark blue) remain far too dark. If I use
gamma it works better. So I wonder how it could be done without.

Sven
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[S. Burmeister]

Am Freitag, 24. Juni 2011, 11:44:21 schrieb Sven Burmeister:
> Could you please try the digikam demosaicing tool with highlights set to
> "blend" or "rebuild". I tried to avoid the gamma setting (1,7) but while it
> works without gamma and adjusting the luminosity curve for most parts of the
> picture, areas that are almost black (dark blue) remain far too dark. If I
> use gamma it works better. So I wonder how it could be done without.

I still had saturation not reset. :( So now it's better and I'll try a bit
further to adjust the curve in digikam to get closer to the picture darktable
gives me with nothing but base-curve set to the camera-ish values.

Sven
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[Remco Viëtor]

on Friday 24 June 2011, Sven Burmeister wrote:
...
> As written in another email I now found how to deal with the curve and get
rid
> of the many points in order to get a smooth curve. Thanks for the hint. the
> reset (for the curve only) etc. are missing in the demosaicing module
though.
...

Not really, although the reset is rather difficult to find:
it's the tiny icon in the lower left corner of the curve editor itself.
Also, to get rid of a point, you can just drag it on one of its neighbours

Remco
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[Remco Viëtor]

on Friday 24 June 2011, Sven Burmeister wrote:

> Am Donnerstag, 23. Juni 2011, 11:48:20 schrieb Martin:
> > I don't think your problem is gamma only. The gamma curve only depends
> > on the colour model you use to view the picture (sRBG, Adobe RBG,
> > Apple RGB ...). It should almost never be necessary to adjust this by
> > hand. But I have no clue what the problem of digikam is here.
>
> Could you please try the digikam demosaicing tool with highlights set to
> "blend" or "rebuild". I tried to avoid the gamma setting (1,7) but while it
> works without gamma and adjusting the luminosity curve for most parts of the
> picture, areas that are almost black (dark blue) remain far too dark. If I

use
> gamma it works better. So I wonder how it could be done without.
>

Iirc, Digikam (at least in certain modes) develops the RAW files with a linear
curve (i.e. gamma=1.0), like dcraw in its default settings. So you will have
to set gamma to the value you want (2.2 usually, except for old Macs, that
used 1.8). Luckily, the values you set is remembered for next use.

Remco
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[Martin (KDE)]

Am Freitag, 24. Juni 2011 schrieb Sven Burmeister:

> Am Donnerstag, 23. Juni 2011, 11:48:20 schrieb Martin:
> > I don't think your problem is gamma only. The gamma curve only
> > depends on the colour model you use to view the picture (sRBG,
> > Adobe RBG, Apple RGB ...). It should almost never be necessary
> > to adjust this by hand. But I have no clue what the problem of
> > digikam is here.
>
> Could you please try the digikam demosaicing tool with highlights
> set to "blend" or "rebuild". I tried to avoid the gamma setting
> (1,7) but while it works without gamma and adjusting the
> luminosity curve for most parts of the picture, areas that are
> almost black (dark blue) remain far too dark. If I use gamma it
> works better. So I wonder how it could be done without.

I tried DK's raw processing yesterday and almost all pictures are to
dark but some are really great with fine details in the clouds as well
as in the dark area. I don't know why some are dark and others are
not.

I played around with the settings only a little bit, so may be there
are settings which give me the result I want. But it is way to
complicated to find this.

DK's raw processing does not fit my needs. I use it to fix photos I
got as jpeg from others and for managing. But for raw processing I use
other tools.

Martin

>
> Sven

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[Rinus]

It´s too bad that the saved curve not can be recalled in batch cue. I
hope this will be implemented in 2.0 as well as an option to save and
reload the batch setup.
Any change?

Rinus

Op 24-06-11 11:58, Remco Viëtor schreef:

> on Friday 24 June 2011, Sven Burmeister wrote:
>> Am Donnerstag, 23. Juni 2011, 11:48:20 schrieb Martin:
>>> I don't think your problem is gamma only. The gamma curve only depends
>>> on the colour model you use to view the picture (sRBG, Adobe RBG,
>>> Apple RGB ...). It should almost never be necessary to adjust this by
>>> hand. But I have no clue what the problem of digikam is here.
>> Could you please try the digikam demosaicing tool with highlights set to
>> "blend" or "rebuild". I tried to avoid the gamma setting (1,7) but while it
>> works without gamma and adjusting the luminosity curve for most parts of the
>> picture, areas that are almost black (dark blue) remain far too dark. If I
> use
>> gamma it works better. So I wonder how it could be done without.
>>
> Iirc, Digikam (at least in certain modes) develops the RAW files with a linear
> curve (i.e. gamma=1.0), like dcraw in its default settings. So you will have
> to set gamma to the value you want (2.2 usually, except for old Macs, that
> used 1.8). Luckily, the values you set is remembered for next use.
>
> Remco
> _______________________________________________
> Digikam-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/digikam-users
>

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[S. Burmeister]

Am Freitag, 24. Juni 2011, 11:22:11 schrieb David Vincent-Jones:
> Of course one can save curves .... ! "Save As" ...

Not in my raw demosaicing tool's post-processing tab. There is just the
luminosity curve, a tiny reset button and that's it.

Sven
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[Rinus]

Op 24-06-11 12:13, sleepless schreef:
> It´s too bad that the saved curve not can be recalled in batch cue. I
> hope this will be implemented in 2.0 as well as an option to save and
> reload the batch setup.
> Any change?
of cource I ment; Any chance?

> Rinus
>
> Op 24-06-11 11:58, Remco Viëtor schreef:
>> on Friday 24 June 2011, Sven Burmeister wrote:
>>> Am Donnerstag, 23. Juni 2011, 11:48:20 schrieb Martin:
>>>> I don't think your problem is gamma only. The gamma curve only depends
>>>> on the colour model you use to view the picture (sRBG, Adobe RBG,
>>>> Apple RGB ...). It should almost never be necessary to adjust this by
>>>> hand. But I have no clue what the problem of digikam is here.
>>> Could you please try the digikam demosaicing tool with highlights set to
>>> "blend" or "rebuild". I tried to avoid the gamma setting (1,7) but while it
>>> works without gamma and adjusting the luminosity curve for most parts of the
>>> picture, areas that are almost black (dark blue) remain far too dark. If I
>> use
>>> gamma it works better. So I wonder how it could be done without.
>>>
>> Iirc, Digikam (at least in certain modes) develops the RAW files with a linear
>> curve (i.e. gamma=1.0), like dcraw in its default settings. So you will have
>> to set gamma to the value you want (2.2 usually, except for old Macs, that
>> used 1.8). Luckily, the values you set is remembered for next use.
>>
>> Remco
>> _______________________________________________
>> Digikam-users mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/digikam-users
>>
> _______________________________________________
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[Gilles Caulier-4]

2011/6/24 sleepless <[hidden email]>

Op 24-06-11 12:13, sleepless schreef:

> It´s too bad that the saved curve not can be recalled in batch cue. I
> hope this will be implemented in 2.0 as well as an option to save and
> reload the batch setup.
> Any change?

of cource I ment; Any chance?

> Rinus

Well. no. I don't fine time yet to implement it. It still in my todo list for later 2.0.0

this week end, we will release RC with strings freeze, and at end of july, the final release.

It still a lots of bug to kill before final. I don't want to implement new stuff for the moment. It's Marcel holiday time for 2 weeks, and i go to French Alps between 15 and 30 July.

There are also GOSC students to follow. so time is limited...

After 2.0.0, i plan to release shortly 2.1, 2.2, 2.3, etc... as i do with 1.x release. Typically one release by month. I plan to implement BQM tool settings save/restore feature at this time...

Gilles Caulier

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[S. Burmeister]

Am Freitag, 24. Juni 2011, 11:27:50 schrieb sleepless:
> Yes you can in 2.0.0 beta 6. There is an option save and load beneath
> the curves. You can actually look in darktable for the curve that your
> camera uses (if it is listed), mimick the curve in digikam and save it
> to reuse every time you want.

I tried mimicking and it worked – so no need for gamma anymore. :)

Yet for the raw module there is neither a save nor load button in the post-
processing tab. So if I got the curve as I want it for a Nikon, I have to
destroy it in order to get a proper one for a Panasonic.

Using the BQM would be a possibility if it allowed settings for demosaicing
other than the default settings in digikam's settings. Yet there seems to be
no possibility to e.g. set whether it uses 8 or 16bit for BQM and one would
have another step for each item in the post-processing tab.

Last time I checked I could not save a queue either, i.e. its settings and
tools. So I would have to set-up that queue over and over again.

Sven
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[S. Burmeister]

Am Freitag, 24. Juni 2011, 11:56:06 schrieb Remco Viëtor:
> Not really, although the reset is rather difficult to find:
> it's the tiny icon in the lower left corner of the curve editor itself.

Found it! :)

Sven
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[Martin (KDE)]

Am Freitag, 24. Juni 2011 schrieb Remco Viëtor:

> on Friday 24 June 2011, Sven Burmeister wrote:
> > Am Donnerstag, 23. Juni 2011, 11:48:20 schrieb Martin:
> > > I don't think your problem is gamma only. The gamma curve only
> > > depends on the colour model you use to view the picture (sRBG,
> > > Adobe RBG, Apple RGB ...). It should almost never be necessary
> > > to adjust this by hand. But I have no clue what the problem of
> > > digikam is here.
> >
> > Could you please try the digikam demosaicing tool with highlights
> > set to "blend" or "rebuild". I tried to avoid the gamma setting
> > (1,7) but while it works without gamma and adjusting the
> > luminosity curve for most parts of the picture, areas that are
> > almost black (dark blue) remain far too dark. If I
>
> use
>
> > gamma it works better. So I wonder how it could be done without.
>
> Iirc, Digikam (at least in certain modes) develops the RAW files
> with a linear curve (i.e. gamma=1.0), like dcraw in its default
> settings. So you will have to set gamma to the value you want (2.2
> usually, except for old Macs, that used 1.8). Luckily, the values
> you set is remembered for next use.

As digikam works with CMS this should never be necessary. If they use
a gamma of 1.0 for raw development the display module has to take care
to convert it to the display intent. This is why colour management
systems are used.

By default most raw data are set with gamma to 1.0 (so not have a
gamma set at all). During process they got a gamma of about 2.2 (for
sRGB and AdobeRGB) or 1.8 (AppleRGB) or no gamma at all (LAB). It is
up to the display or printing software to take the right gamma and
recalculate it for the display or printer.

Martin

>
> Remco
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[Rinus]

Op 24-06-11 12:27, Gilles Caulier schreef:

2011/6/24 sleepless <[hidden email]>

Op 24-06-11 12:13, sleepless schreef:

> It´s too bad that the saved curve not can be recalled in batch cue. I
> hope this will be implemented in 2.0 as well as an option to save and
> reload the batch setup.
> Any change?

of cource I ment; Any chance?

> Rinus

Well. no. I don't fine time yet to implement it. It still in my todo list for later 2.0.0

this week end, we will release RC with strings freeze, and at end of july, the final release.

It still a lots of bug to kill before final. I don't want to implement new stuff for the moment.

I can understand that.

It's Marcel holiday time for 2 weeks, and i go to French Alps between 15 and 30 July.

Always good t do that. I myself would not be much around till end off august too.

There are also GOSC students to follow. so time is limited...

After 2.0.0, i plan to release shortly 2.1, 2.2, 2.3, etc... as i do with 1.x release. Typically one release by month. I plan to implement BQM tool settings save/restore feature at this time...

That´s the good news!

Rinus

Gilles Caulier

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