Preview and editing of raw

[skmg]

Hi

I see that preview of CR2 image differs much from the same image which is loaded for editing. Editing image is more lighty, with other color balance and etc. I can not get same colors as it showed in preview. How can I reach these colors by editing and converting to jpg?

[Gerhard Kulzer-3]

On Sunday 28 September 2008 20:04:50 skmg wrote:

> Hi

>

> I see that preview of CR2 image differs much from the same image which is

> loaded for editing. Editing image is more lighty, with other color balance

> and etc. I can not get same colors as it showed in preview. How can I reach

> these colors by editing and converting to jpg?

Sorry to start with a heretic question: if you want an image to look like a jpg, why don't you shoot in jpg mode?

If you shoot RAW images you should want to control how they look whatever that means. You want your own thing!

It took me quite a while to realize that for myself: If I like the way the jpgs straight out of the camera look there is no reason to shoot in RAW and try to reproduce something that the manufacturer took a lot of care and money to produce (that particular recipe is hard to beat). I rather take the jpgs, convert them to a lossless format like png and be happy with it.

When I use RAW images nowadays I have a particular aim in my mind or I just play with the freedom of interpretation, I've given up to imitate industrial products which are close to perfect in their own sense (jpgs straight from the camera).

Other good reasons to take RAW images are: fidelity, repeatability, noise reduction, hight light and dynamic range recovery. In there are some reasons that might you may want to reproduce the looks of industry fashioned products (jpgs). Usually I can achieve that (with CR2s) by importing RAWs with everything set to default, white balance set to camera and applying a camera provided profile to the result.

Gerhard

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> no reason to shoot in RAW and try to reproduce something that the  
> manufacturer took a lot of care and money to produce (that  
> particular recipe is hard to beat). I rather take the jpgs, convert  
> them to a lossless format like png and be happy with it.
Why are you doing that? The filesize probably increases and you don't  
gain any quality. Since the "compression loss" happens when the  
(processed) RAW data is compressed into the jpeg format. The  
conversion to png can't undo the compression loss.

bye,
  juergen
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[Gilles Caulier-4]

2008/9/28 Jürgen Scholz <[hidden email]>

> no reason to shoot in RAW and try to reproduce something that the
> manufacturer took a lot of care and money to produce (that
> particular recipe is hard to beat). I rather take the jpgs, convert
> them to a lossless format like png and be happy with it.

Why are you doing that? The filesize probably increases and you don't
gain any quality. Since the "compression loss" happens when the
(processed) RAW data is compressed into the jpeg format. The
conversion to png can't undo the compression loss.

(:=))

If you re-eedit a jpeg file later, you will loss quality again !

Second problem : jpeg color is 8  bits per color per pixel. RAW is 16 ! using png or tiff, you don't loss color depth...

JPEG is not dedicated to edit a picture, it just to publish on the web a final image... using a lossless image file format will prevent this problem...
 
Gilles Caulier

bye,
 juergen

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[skmg]

Gerhard Kulzer-3 wrote

On Sunday 28 September 2008 20:04:50 skmg wrote:
> Hi
>
> I see that preview of CR2 image differs much from the same image which is
> loaded for editing. Editing image is more lighty, with other color balance
> and etc. I can not get same colors as it showed in preview. How can I reach
> these colors by editing and converting to jpg?

Sorry to start with a heretic question: if you want an image to look like a
jpg, why don't you shoot in jpg mode?

If you shoot RAW images you should want to control how they look whatever that
means. You want your own thing!

It took me quite a while to realize that for myself: If I like the way the
jpgs straight out of the camera look there is no reason to shoot in RAW and
try to reproduce something that the manufacturer took a lot of care and money
to produce (that particular recipe is hard to beat). I rather take the jpgs,
convert them to a lossless format like png and be happy with it.

When I use RAW images nowadays I have a particular aim in my mind or I just
play with the freedom of interpretation, I've given up to imitate industrial
products which are close to perfect in their own sense (jpgs straight from the
camera).

Other good reasons to take RAW images are: fidelity, repeatability, noise
reduction, hight light and dynamic range recovery. In there are some reasons
that might you may want to reproduce the looks of industry fashioned products
(jpgs). Usually I can achieve that (with CR2s) by importing RAWs with
everything set to default, white balance set to camera and applying a camera
provided profile to the result.

Gerhard

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Hi
You don't understand me. I mean preview which is generated by digikam. btw, editor must be able to reach the same colors. CR2 is much powerfull with more abilities. I just want to start with editing from the same view as preview has.

On Monday 29 September 2008 05:21:08 Gilles Caulier wrote:
> Second problem : jpeg color is 8  bits per color per pixel. RAW is 16 !

That's not exactly true. There usually is 12 to 14 bits.

Damnshock
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[Gerhard Kulzer-3]

On Monday 29 September 2008 08:28:25 skmg wrote:

> Gerhard Kulzer-3 wrote:

> > On Sunday 28 September 2008 20:04:50 skmg wrote:

> >> Hi

> >>

> >> I see that preview of CR2 image differs much from the same image which

> >> is loaded for editing. Editing image is more lighty, with other color

> >> balance

> >> and etc. I can not get same colors as it showed in preview. How can I

> >> reach

> >> these colors by editing and converting to jpg?

> >

> > Sorry to start with a heretic question: if you want an image to look like

> > a

> > jpg, why don't you shoot in jpg mode?

> >

> > If you shoot RAW images you should want to control how they look whatever

> > that

> > means. You want your own thing!

> >

> > It took me quite a while to realize that for myself: If I like the way

> > the jpgs straight out of the camera look there is no reason to shoot in

> > RAW and

> > try to reproduce something that the manufacturer took a lot of care and

> > money

> > to produce (that particular recipe is hard to beat). I rather take the

> > jpgs,

> > convert them to a lossless format like png and be happy with it.

> >

> > When I use RAW images nowadays I have a particular aim in my mind or I

> > just

> > play with the freedom of interpretation, I've given up to imitate

> > industrial

> > products which are close to perfect in their own sense (jpgs straight

> > from the

> > camera).

> >

> > Other good reasons to take RAW images are: fidelity, repeatability, noise

> > reduction, hight light and dynamic range recovery. In there are some

> > reasons

> > that might you may want to reproduce the looks of industry fashioned

> > products

> > (jpgs). Usually I can achieve that (with CR2s) by importing RAWs with

> > everything set to default, white balance set to camera and applying a

> > camera

> > provided profile to the result.

> >

> > Gerhard

> >

> > _______________________________________________

> > Digikam-users mailing list

> > [hidden email]

> > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/digikam-users

>

> Hi

> You don't understand me. I mean preview which is generated by digikam. btw,

> editor must be able to reach the same colors. CR2 is much powerfull with

> more abilities. I just want to start with editing from the same view as

> preview has.

As I said above:

Usually I can achieve that (with CR2s) by importing RAWs with everything set to default, white balance set to 'camera' and applying a camera provided profile to the result. You have to apply the same camera profile variant as you've set your camera to (e.g. landscape or neutral). My camera is a EOS 40D. But it works with the 30D too, just have to use the appropriate profiles.

Gerhard

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[Gerhard Kulzer-3]

On Monday 29 September 2008 08:49:55 Marc Deop i Argemí wrote:

> On Monday 29 September 2008 05:21:08 Gilles Caulier wrote:

> > Second problem : jpeg color is 8  bits per color per pixel. RAW is 16 !

>

> That's not exactly true. There usually is 12 to 14 bits.

Theoretically yes! Do you know of any camera outputting such high bit jpgs?

Gerhard

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On Monday 29 September 2008 09:18:52 Gerhard Kulzer wrote:
> Theoretically yes! Do you know of any camera outputting such high bit jpgs?

I'm afraid I did not explain myself correctly. Sorry: I was talking about the
raw format!
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[skmg]

Gerhard Kulzer-3 wrote

On Monday 29 September 2008 08:28:25 skmg wrote:
> Gerhard Kulzer-3 wrote:
> > On Sunday 28 September 2008 20:04:50 skmg wrote:
> >> Hi
> >>
> >> I see that preview of CR2 image differs much from the same image which
> >> is loaded for editing. Editing image is more lighty, with other color
> >> balance
> >> and etc. I can not get same colors as it showed in preview. How can I
> >> reach
> >> these colors by editing and converting to jpg?
> >
> > Sorry to start with a heretic question: if you want an image to look like
> > a
> > jpg, why don't you shoot in jpg mode?
> >
> > If you shoot RAW images you should want to control how they look whatever
> > that
> > means. You want your own thing!
> >
> > It took me quite a while to realize that for myself: If I like the way
> > the jpgs straight out of the camera look there is no reason to shoot in
> > RAW and
> > try to reproduce something that the manufacturer took a lot of care and
> > money
> > to produce (that particular recipe is hard to beat). I rather take the
> > jpgs,
> > convert them to a lossless format like png and be happy with it.
> >
> > When I use RAW images nowadays I have a particular aim in my mind or I
> > just
> > play with the freedom of interpretation, I've given up to imitate
> > industrial
> > products which are close to perfect in their own sense (jpgs straight
> > from the
> > camera).
> >
> > Other good reasons to take RAW images are: fidelity, repeatability, noise
> > reduction, hight light and dynamic range recovery. In there are some
> > reasons
> > that might you may want to reproduce the looks of industry fashioned
> > products
> > (jpgs). Usually I can achieve that (with CR2s) by importing RAWs with
> > everything set to default, white balance set to camera and applying a
> > camera
> > provided profile to the result.
> >
> > Gerhard
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Digikam-users mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/digikam-users
>
> Hi
> You don't understand me. I mean preview which is generated by digikam. btw,
> editor must be able to reach the same colors. CR2 is much powerfull with
> more abilities. I just want to start with editing from the same view as
> preview has.
As I said above:
Usually I can achieve that (with CR2s) by importing RAWs with everything set
to default, white balance set to 'camera' and applying a camera provided
profile to the result. You have to apply the same camera profile variant as
you've set your camera to (e.g. landscape or neutral). My camera is a EOS 40D.
But it works with the 30D too, just have to use the appropriate profiles.

Gerhard

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usually, I have no problem with white balance. The biggest problem is brithness and contrast. May be, saturation. The part of image is slighly overexposured, but preview shows details there, halftones, and image is in balanse. When I open to edit whit defaults, these details disappears. These parts begin to be too ligthy. When I begin to play around brightness, contrast, I am losing halftones. So, I just want to begin to work with image from same stage which is in preview.

I am using 400D. How can I import camera profiles to editor? And why preview has it but not editor?

[Gilles Caulier-4]

2008/9/29 skmg <[hidden email]>

Gerhard Kulzer-3 wrote:
>
> On Monday 29 September 2008 08:28:25 skmg wrote:
>> Gerhard Kulzer-3 wrote:
>> > On Sunday 28 September 2008 20:04:50 skmg wrote:
>> >> Hi
>> >>
>> >> I see that preview of CR2 image differs much from the same image which
>> >> is loaded for editing. Editing image is more lighty, with other color
>> >> balance
>> >> and etc. I can not get same colors as it showed in preview. How can I
>> >> reach
>> >> these colors by editing and converting to jpg?
>> >
>> > Sorry to start with a heretic question: if you want an image to look
>> like
>> > a
>> > jpg, why don't you shoot in jpg mode?
>> >
>> > If you shoot RAW images you should want to control how they look
>> whatever
>> > that
>> > means. You want your own thing!
>> >
>> > It took me quite a while to realize that for myself: If I like the way
>> > the jpgs straight out of the camera look there is no reason to shoot in
>> > RAW and
>> > try to reproduce something that the manufacturer took a lot of care and
>> > money
>> > to produce (that particular recipe is hard to beat). I rather take the
>> > jpgs,
>> > convert them to a lossless format like png and be happy with it.
>> >
>> > When I use RAW images nowadays I have a particular aim in my mind or I
>> > just
>> > play with the freedom of interpretation, I've given up to imitate
>> > industrial
>> > products which are close to perfect in their own sense (jpgs straight
>> > from the
>> > camera).
>> >
>> > Other good reasons to take RAW images are: fidelity, repeatability,
>> noise
>> > reduction, hight light and dynamic range recovery. In there are some
>> > reasons
>> > that might you may want to reproduce the looks of industry fashioned
>> > products
>> > (jpgs). Usually I can achieve that (with CR2s) by importing RAWs with
>> > everything set to default, white balance set to camera and applying a
>> > camera
>> > provided profile to the result.
>> >
>> > Gerhard
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Digikam-users mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/digikam-users
>>
>> Hi
>> You don't understand me. I mean preview which is generated by digikam.
>> btw,
>> editor must be able to reach the same colors. CR2 is much powerfull with
>> more abilities. I just want to start with editing from the same view as
>> preview has.
> As I said above:
> Usually I can achieve that (with CR2s) by importing RAWs with everything
> set
> to default, white balance set to 'camera' and applying a camera provided
> profile to the result. You have to apply the same camera profile variant
> as
> you've set your camera to (e.g. landscape or neutral). My camera is a EOS
> 40D.
> But it works with the 30D too, just have to use the appropriate profiles.
>
> Gerhard
>
> _______________________________________________
> Digikam-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/digikam-users
>
>

usually, I have no problem with white balance. The biggest problem is
brithness and contrast. May be, saturation. The part of image is slighly
overexposured, but preview shows details there, halftones, and image is in
balanse. When I open to edit whit defaults, these details disappears. These
parts begin to be too ligthy. When I begin to play around brightness,
contrast, I am losing halftones. So, I just want to begin to work with image
from same stage which is in preview.

I am using 400D. How can I import camera profiles to editor? And why preview
has it but not editor?

Preview == JPEG image embeded in RAW file. this is _not_ rendered from RAW image data.

This is why color sound fine for you : camera device firmware has processed white balance + other stuff automatically.

RAW is different. nothing is done. you must trying to do what the camera has done for you with JPEG, plus some variations of course...

digiKam 0.9.4 (not 0.9.3) try to do white balance + auto gamma with RAW files. in 0.9.5 (KDE3) and 0.10.0 (KDE4) a new RAW Import tool is done to be able to tune finelly all settings. Look here :

http://www.digikam.org/drupal/node/370
http://www.digikam.org/drupal/node/365
http://www.digikam.org/drupal/node/364

Gilles Caulier

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Gilles Caulier a écrit :

>
>
> 2008/9/29 skmg <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>
>
>
>
>     Gerhard Kulzer-3 wrote:
>     >
>     > On Monday 29 September 2008 08:28:25 skmg wrote:
>     >> Gerhard Kulzer-3 wrote:
>     >> > On Sunday 28 September 2008 20:04:50 skmg wrote:
>     >> >> Hi
>     >> >>
>     >> >> I see that preview of CR2 image differs much from the same
>     image which
>     >> >> is loaded for editing. Editing image is more lighty, with
>     other color
>     >> >> balance
>     >> >> and etc. I can not get same colors as it showed in preview.
>     How can I
>     >> >> reach
>     >> >> these colors by editing and converting to jpg?
>     >> >
>     >> > Sorry to start with a heretic question: if you want an image
>     to look
>     >> like
>     >> > a
>     >> > jpg, why don't you shoot in jpg mode?
>     >> >
>     >> > If you shoot RAW images you should want to control how they look
>     >> whatever
>     >> > that
>     >> > means. You want your own thing!
>     >> >
>     >> > It took me quite a while to realize that for myself: If I
>     like the way
>     >> > the jpgs straight out of the camera look there is no reason
>     to shoot in
>     >> > RAW and
>     >> > try to reproduce something that the manufacturer took a lot
>     of care and
>     >> > money
>     >> > to produce (that particular recipe is hard to beat). I rather
>     take the
>     >> > jpgs,
>     >> > convert them to a lossless format like png and be happy with it.
>     >> >
>     >> > When I use RAW images nowadays I have a particular aim in my
>     mind or I
>     >> > just
>     >> > play with the freedom of interpretation, I've given up to imitate
>     >> > industrial
>     >> > products which are close to perfect in their own sense (jpgs
>     straight
>     >> > from the
>     >> > camera).
>     >> >
>     >> > Other good reasons to take RAW images are: fidelity,
>     repeatability,
>     >> noise
>     >> > reduction, hight light and dynamic range recovery. In there
>     are some
>     >> > reasons
>     >> > that might you may want to reproduce the looks of industry
>     fashioned
>     >> > products
>     >> > (jpgs). Usually I can achieve that (with CR2s) by importing
>     RAWs with
>     >> > everything set to default, white balance set to camera and
>     applying a
>     >> > camera
>     >> > provided profile to the result.
>     >> >
>     >> > Gerhard
>     >> >
>     >> > _______________________________________________
>     >> > Digikam-users mailing list
>     >> > [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     >> > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/digikam-users
>     >>
>     >> Hi
>     >> You don't understand me. I mean preview which is generated by
>     digikam.
>     >> btw,
>     >> editor must be able to reach the same colors. CR2 is much
>     powerfull with
>     >> more abilities. I just want to start with editing from the same
>     view as
>     >> preview has.
>     > As I said above:
>     > Usually I can achieve that (with CR2s) by importing RAWs with
>     everything
>     > set
>     > to default, white balance set to 'camera' and applying a camera
>     provided
>     > profile to the result. You have to apply the same camera profile
>     variant
>     > as
>     > you've set your camera to (e.g. landscape or neutral). My camera
>     is a EOS
>     > 40D.
>     > But it works with the 30D too, just have to use the appropriate
>     profiles.
>     >
>     > Gerhard
>     >
>     > _______________________________________________
>     > Digikam-users mailing list
>     > [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/digikam-users
>     >
>     >
>
>     usually, I have no problem with white balance. The biggest problem is
>     brithness and contrast. May be, saturation. The part of image is
>     slighly
>     overexposured, but preview shows details there, halftones, and
>     image is in
>     balanse. When I open to edit whit defaults, these details
>     disappears. These
>     parts begin to be too ligthy. When I begin to play around brightness,
>     contrast, I am losing halftones. So, I just want to begin to work
>     with image
>     from same stage which is in preview.
>
>     I am using 400D. How can I import camera profiles to editor? And
>     why preview
>     has it but not editor?
>
>
> Preview == JPEG image embeded in RAW file. this is _not_ rendered from
> RAW image data.
>
> This is why color sound fine for you : camera device firmware has
> processed white balance + other stuff automatically.
>
> RAW is different. nothing is done. you must trying to do what the
> camera has done for you with JPEG, plus some variations of course...
>
> digiKam 0.9.4 (not 0.9.3) try to do white balance + auto gamma with
> RAW files. in 0.9.5 (KDE3) and 0.10.0 (KDE4) a new RAW Import tool is
> done to be able to tune finelly all settings. Look here :
>
> http://www.digikam.org/drupal/node/370
> http://www.digikam.org/drupal/node/365
> http://www.digikam.org/drupal/node/364
>
> Gilles Caulier

Hi,

Maybe Digikam could guess white balance, saturation, etc  using the
embedded jpeg, this would produce by default a picture which look like
vendor's jpeg.

My 2 cent,

Julien

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> (:=))
>
> If you re-eedit a jpeg file later, you will loss quality again !
D'uh! I did not think of that, since I rarely adjust something on the  
images.

> Second problem : jpeg color is 8  bits per color per pixel. RAW is  
> 16 ! using png or tiff, you don't loss color depth...
Only if you shoot in raw.

> JPEG is not dedicated to edit a picture, it just to publish on the  
> web a final image... using a lossless image file format will prevent  
> this problem...
You are right. ;-) Since I mostly have pictures which aren't important  
on a personal level but more on a business like level I haven't given  
much thought to this. As you might have already noticed. ;-)

bye,
  juergen
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[skmg]

Now, I understood.

Thank you for comments!

I am looking forward for new raw tool.

With best regards,

skmg

Bugzilla from [e-mail] wrote

2008/9/29 skmg <[e-mail]>

>
>
>
> Gerhard Kulzer-3 wrote:
> >
> > On Monday 29 September 2008 08:28:25 skmg wrote:
> >> Gerhard Kulzer-3 wrote:
> >> > On Sunday 28 September 2008 20:04:50 skmg wrote:
> >> >> Hi
> >> >>
> >> >> I see that preview of CR2 image differs much from the same image
> which
> >> >> is loaded for editing. Editing image is more lighty, with other color
> >> >> balance
> >> >> and etc. I can not get same colors as it showed in preview. How can I
> >> >> reach
> >> >> these colors by editing and converting to jpg?
> >> >
> >> > Sorry to start with a heretic question: if you want an image to look
> >> like
> >> > a
> >> > jpg, why don't you shoot in jpg mode?
> >> >
> >> > If you shoot RAW images you should want to control how they look
> >> whatever
> >> > that
> >> > means. You want your own thing!
> >> >
> >> > It took me quite a while to realize that for myself: If I like the way
> >> > the jpgs straight out of the camera look there is no reason to shoot
> in
> >> > RAW and
> >> > try to reproduce something that the manufacturer took a lot of care
> and
> >> > money
> >> > to produce (that particular recipe is hard to beat). I rather take the
> >> > jpgs,
> >> > convert them to a lossless format like png and be happy with it.
> >> >
> >> > When I use RAW images nowadays I have a particular aim in my mind or I
> >> > just
> >> > play with the freedom of interpretation, I've given up to imitate
> >> > industrial
> >> > products which are close to perfect in their own sense (jpgs straight
> >> > from the
> >> > camera).
> >> >
> >> > Other good reasons to take RAW images are: fidelity, repeatability,
> >> noise
> >> > reduction, hight light and dynamic range recovery. In there are some
> >> > reasons
> >> > that might you may want to reproduce the looks of industry fashioned
> >> > products
> >> > (jpgs). Usually I can achieve that (with CR2s) by importing RAWs with
> >> > everything set to default, white balance set to camera and applying a
> >> > camera
> >> > provided profile to the result.
> >> >
> >> > Gerhard
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Digikam-users mailing list
> >> > [e-mail]
> >> > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/digikam-users
> >>
> >> Hi
> >> You don't understand me. I mean preview which is generated by digikam.
> >> btw,
> >> editor must be able to reach the same colors. CR2 is much powerfull with
> >> more abilities. I just want to start with editing from the same view as
> >> preview has.
> > As I said above:
> > Usually I can achieve that (with CR2s) by importing RAWs with everything
> > set
> > to default, white balance set to 'camera' and applying a camera provided
> > profile to the result. You have to apply the same camera profile variant
> > as
> > you've set your camera to (e.g. landscape or neutral). My camera is a EOS
> > 40D.
> > But it works with the 30D too, just have to use the appropriate profiles.
> >
> > Gerhard
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Digikam-users mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/digikam-users
> >
> >
>
> usually, I have no problem with white balance. The biggest problem is
> brithness and contrast. May be, saturation. The part of image is slighly
> overexposured, but preview shows details there, halftones, and image is in
> balanse. When I open to edit whit defaults, these details disappears. These
> parts begin to be too ligthy. When I begin to play around brightness,
> contrast, I am losing halftones. So, I just want to begin to work with
> image
> from same stage which is in preview.
>
> I am using 400D. How can I import camera profiles to editor? And why
> preview
> has it but not editor?


Preview == JPEG image embeded in RAW file. this is _not_ rendered from RAW
image data.

This is why color sound fine for you : camera device firmware has processed
white balance + other stuff automatically.

RAW is different. nothing is done. you must trying to do what the camera has
done for you with JPEG, plus some variations of course...

digiKam 0.9.4 (not 0.9.3) try to do white balance + auto gamma with RAW
files. in 0.9.5 (KDE3) and 0.10.0 (KDE4) a new RAW Import tool is done to be
able to tune finelly all settings. Look here :

http://www.digikam.org/drupal/node/370
http://www.digikam.org/drupal/node/365
http://www.digikam.org/drupal/node/364

Gilles Caulier

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