Is thunderbird and gmail a good option to use the digikam mailing list ?

[Chris Green]

On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 07:14:12AM -0700, Andrey Goreev wrote:
>    I think you need to google for " *your email provider* imap
>    thunderbird".
>
>    If you added it to Thunderbird using pop3 protocol you can only have
>    scheduled delivery, e.g. every 5 min, 30 min, etc.
>
>    imap should be able to "push" an email to your Thunderbird whenever a
>    new one comes in.
>
A standard IMAP server might not have the push extension, it's
apparently really only intended for smartphone use anyway.  

... and does Thunderbird know about IMAP push?

--
Chris Green

[AndriusWild]

I am pretty sure there is an extension.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

-------- Original message --------

From: Chris Green <[hidden email]>

Date: 2017-01-26 7:18 AM (GMT-07:00)

To: [hidden email]

Subject: Re: Is thunderbird and gmail a good option to use the digikam mailing list ?

On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 07:14:12AM -0700, Andrey Goreev wrote:
>    I think you need to google for " *your email provider* imap
>    thunderbird".
>
>    If you added it to Thunderbird using pop3 protocol you can only have
>    scheduled delivery, e.g. every 5 min, 30 min, etc.
>
>    imap should be able to "push" an email to your Thunderbird whenever a
>    new one comes in.
>
A standard IMAP server might not have the push extension, it's
apparently really only intended for smartphone use anyway. 

... and does Thunderbird know about IMAP push?

--
Chris Green

[Stuart T Rogers]

Thunderbird supports IMAP out of the box....

Stuart

On 26/01/17 14:27, Andrey Goreev wrote:

> I am pretty sure there is an extension.
>
>
>
> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Chris Green <[hidden email]>
> Date: 2017-01-26 7:18 AM (GMT-07:00)
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: Is thunderbird and gmail a good option to use the digikam
> mailing list ?
>
> On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 07:14:12AM -0700, Andrey Goreev wrote:
>>    I think you need to google for " *your email provider* imap
>>    thunderbird".
>>
>>    If you added it to Thunderbird using pop3 protocol you can only have
>>    scheduled delivery, e.g. every 5 min, 30 min, etc.
>>
>>    imap should be able to "push" an email to your Thunderbird whenever a
>>    new one comes in.
>>
> A standard IMAP server might not have the push extension, it's
> apparently really only intended for smartphone use anyway.
>
> ... and does Thunderbird know about IMAP push?
>
> --
> Chris Green

--
Website: http://www.stella-maris.org.uk
or:      http://www.broadstairs.org

[Chris Green]

On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 02:41:43PM +0000, Stuart T Rogers wrote:
> Thunderbird supports IMAP out of the box....
>
Yes, it supports IMAP of course, but does it support the IMAP Push
extension to the protocol?

A quick search indicates that this is a bit of a grey area, it's not
obvious whether Thunderbird supports it ot not.

(As an aside it's one of the reasons that I have stopped using IMAP,
it's too big and complex for full agreement between server and client
about how it works.  I now get my mail PUSHed to a local spool by
having an SMTP server on my system, running all the time)

--
Chris Green

[Stuart T Rogers]

According to
http://kb.mozillazine.org/IMAP:_advanced_account_configuration it does
using the IDLE command.

Stuart

On 26/01/17 14:46, Chris Green wrote:

> On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 02:41:43PM +0000, Stuart T Rogers wrote:
>> Thunderbird supports IMAP out of the box....
>>
> Yes, it supports IMAP of course, but does it support the IMAP Push
> extension to the protocol?
>
> A quick search indicates that this is a bit of a grey area, it's not
> obvious whether Thunderbird supports it ot not.
>
> (As an aside it's one of the reasons that I have stopped using IMAP,
> it's too big and complex for full agreement between server and client
> about how it works.  I now get my mail PUSHed to a local spool by
> having an SMTP server on my system, running all the time)
>

--
Website: http://www.stella-maris.org.uk
or:      http://www.broadstairs.org

[Chris Green]

On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 03:01:47PM +0000, Stuart T Rogers wrote:
> According to http://kb.mozillazine.org/IMAP:_advanced_account_configuration
> it does using the IDLE command.
>
My reading was that the IDLE command is necessary for IMAP Push to
work but it isn't all there is to it.  However I may well be wrong.

The above does read as if Thunderbird should manage without polling.

--
Chris Green

[Stuart T Rogers]

I use Tbird all the time but all my accounts are set up as POP3 so I
cannot be absolutely sure but it does read like it 'should'.

Stuart

On 26/01/17 15:21, Chris Green wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 03:01:47PM +0000, Stuart T Rogers wrote:
>> According to http://kb.mozillazine.org/IMAP:_advanced_account_configuration
>> it does using the IDLE command.
>>
> My reading was that the IDLE command is necessary for IMAP Push to
> work but it isn't all there is to it.  However I may well be wrong.
>
> The above does read as if Thunderbird should manage without polling.
>

--
Website: http://www.stella-maris.org.uk
or:      http://www.broadstairs.org

[Dan Dascalescu]

Since you guys are continuing the discussion here about mailing lists vs. forum, I will let slide the accusation that I've hijacked the thread, and answer here.

On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 1:48 AM, jdd <[hidden email]> wrote:

Le 26/01/2017 à 10:44, nonobio a écrit :

to add to what was said on the subject, it's pretty easy to follow a mailing list on a smartĥone, and very difficult to do the same on a forum - I often have passwd and characters size problems in forums with my (5" android) phone

There are TONS of bad "forums" out there. Let's not talk about "a forum". I'm talking specifically about Discourse, which is developed by the same team who has developed StackOverflow. Discourse has excellent responsive UX on smartphones, and you only type your password once and stay logged in - I don't get this misconception that you need to log in and out all the time that someone else complained about.

On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 2:10 AM, Chris Green <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Tue, Jan 24, 2017 at 12:25:48PM -0800, Dan Dascalescu wrote:
>    You wouldn't have this problem if we used [1]an actual forum.
>
I (and I suspect a few others) wouldn't be here if it was a forum.

You assume (wrongly, I'll go into that below) that there's no email option. Anyway, for each one quasi-luddite who wouldn't be on a forum, there would be 10 users who WOULD join. I'm not sure many folks here realize, but the average software user is NOT like us. It's a similar problem to what I've faced as an engineer at Google: teams believe they're the typical user, but they're far, far from the average - highly skilled, Internet veterans, with enough time and patience to deal with bleeding edge software etc. If you think at scale (and have the data), you quickly realize that the conversion rate for a signup form is around 1% (if you're lucky). That gets much better if your community supports OAuth, so the user can *optionally* login with their Google/Twitter/Facebook/GitHub account if they want.

digiKam-users doesn't even have a search page, for crying out loud. There's Nabble, but the search is shitty, as I pointed in my other thread, which if this were a proper forum I would link to - but guess what: on a mailing list, the concept of linking to a different thread does not even exist! What am I supposed to do, dump the other thread to a text file and attach it?

 

E-Mail has, for me, huge advantages:-

    It comes to me, I don't have to open my browser and log in the
    forum.  I'm on 60 or so E-Mail lists, if these were all forums I'd
    be spending all my time logging in and out.

Why would you need to log out?

And Chris, I find it delightfully Ironic how given your convenience of having all these threads arrive in your inbox, you missed my very recent thread where I *volunteered* to create a proper, modern forum for digiKam, and explained how Discourse can be run in mailing list mode, so those who love email can stick to email (and those who want email notifications for only some threads, particularly those they've subscribed to, can do just that - again something nearly impossible with mailing lists, unless you consider the crude digest options, which still require scanning through all the threads).

 

    I can filter the incoming mail so each list ends up in its own
    mail folder.

So can you filter the emails from any Discourse forum.

 

    I can use the editor that *I* want to use to create and edit
    posts, I use the same editor everywhere and don't have to remember
    different commands for different lists.

I'm sorry, but what fancy editing features (or commands?) do you use with this mailing list? Does it even support any formatting? What if you wanted to attach a screenshot?

Discourse has a standard Mardkown editor, with live side-by-side preview. It's the same Markdown formatting used everywhere - photography.StackExchange, GitHub, Slack, Trello etc. And if you insist, you can still use vim and copy/paste your message into the forum or email it, as I've previously explained.

 

    With the mail client I use the messages are properly threaded.

Can you share a link from one thread to another?

Can the community contribute to content curation by starring/liking posts?

Can a post be edited collaboratively so it becomes a wiki article to up-to-date, authoritative content?

Can you summarize a long topic? (example)

What happens if you want to access a discussion from somewhere else than your particular mail client? Or point someone to a discussion?

How about new people who join and don't have any existing discussions? And don't tell me they'll bother downloading the archives - 99% won't.

And I could go on an on but those who are resistant to change, are going to be resistant to change, no matter my rational arguments. It's a matter of individual mindset.

[Boudewijn]

Hi Dan,

Thank you for your insistence and elaborate argument! I'll join the hijacked
thread, I prefer the title over the '97-reference (good year though it may be)
and top-post to do away with all the benefits of using email anyway.

I tend to prefer mailing lists for the previously mentioned reasons. Some
mailing lists switched to a hybrid forum/list offering, where I quite felt
that email was a second best choice. Discourse sounds ... promising.

digiKam runs on the KDE-infrastructure which is somewhat of a valid argument
against switching: now there is a volunteer (you :-) )for setting up an
alternative, but next year time might be lacking (or the year after). Of
course there will be many more volunteers by that time, but imagine that is
not the case.

Do you think there is a way to make an email-bridge between the KDE mailing
list and a separate discourse instance? There would be a hyper-active DK-
mailinglist member "mailing via discourse" on this list, and a very well
informed "mailing via DK-users" member on discourse.

My reason for joining the thread: I share your view that a well integrated
forum would allow many more people to share and enjoy digiKam.

I got interested enough to have a look at the FAQ[0]; it mentions, among
others:
 There's no super secret special paid commercial version with better or
 more complete features. Because Discourse is 100% open source, now and
 forever, it belongs to you as much as it belongs to us. That's how
 community works.
and:
 (Of course, there is technical and social friction to change in any
  established community. Engage in discussions with your community about any
  such change well in advance.
 )

With best wishes and hopes for a fruitful outcome one way or another,

Boudewijn

[0] https://www.discourse.org/faq/

On donderdag 26 januari 2017 12:46:34 CET Dan Dascalescu wrote:

> Since you guys are continuing the discussion here about mailing lists vs.
> forum, I will let slide the accusation that I've hijacked the thread, and
> answer here.
>
> On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 1:48 AM, jdd <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Le 26/01/2017 à 10:44, nonobio a écrit :
> >> to add to what was said on the subject, it's pretty easy to follow a
> >
> > mailing list on a smartĥone, and very difficult to do the same on a forum
> > -
> > I often have passwd and characters size problems in forums with my (5"
> > android) phone
>
> There are TONS of bad "forums" out there. Let's not talk about "a forum".
> I'm talking specifically about Discourse, which is developed by the same
> team who has developed StackOverflow. Discourse has excellent responsive UX
> on smartphones, and you only type your password once and stay logged in - I
> don't get this misconception that you need to log in and out all the time
> that someone else complained about.
>
> On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 2:10 AM, Chris Green <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On Tue, Jan 24, 2017 at 12:25:48PM -0800, Dan Dascalescu wrote:
> > >    You wouldn't have this problem if we used [1]an actual forum.
> >
> > I (and I suspect a few others) wouldn't be here if it was a forum.
>
> You assume (wrongly, I'll go into that below) that there's no email option.
> Anyway, for each one quasi-luddite who wouldn't be on a forum, there would
> be 10 users who WOULD join. I'm not sure many folks here realize, but the
> average software user is NOT like us. It's a similar problem to what I've
> faced as an engineer at Google: teams believe they're the typical user, but
> they're far, far from the average - highly skilled, Internet veterans, with
> enough time and patience to deal with bleeding edge software etc. If you
> think at scale (and have the data), you quickly realize that the conversion
> rate for a signup form is around 1% (if you're lucky). That gets much
> better if your community supports OAuth, so the user can *optionally* login
> with their Google/Twitter/Facebook/GitHub account if they want.
>
> digiKam-users doesn't even have a search page, for crying out loud. There's
> Nabble, but the search is shitty, as I pointed in my other thread, which if
> this were a proper forum I would link to - but guess what: on a mailing
> list, the concept of linking to a different thread does not even exist!
> What am I supposed to do, dump the other thread to a text file and attach
> it?
>
> > E-Mail has, for me, huge advantages:-
> >
> >     It comes to me, I don't have to open my browser and log in the
> >     forum.  I'm on 60 or so E-Mail lists, if these were all forums I'd
> >     be spending all my time logging in and out.
>
> Why would you need to log out?
>
> And Chris, I find it delightfully Ironic how given your convenience of
> having all these threads arrive in your inbox, you missed my very recent
> thread where I *volunteered* to create a proper, modern forum for digiKam,
> and explained how Discourse can be run in mailing list mode, so those who
> love email can stick to email (and those who want email notifications for
> only some threads, particularly those they've subscribed to, can do just
> that - again something nearly impossible with mailing lists, unless you
> consider the crude digest options, which still require scanning through all
> the threads).
>
> >     I can filter the incoming mail so each list ends up in its own
> >     mail folder.
>
> So can you filter the emails from any Discourse forum.
>
> >     I can use the editor that *I* want to use to create and edit
> >     posts, I use the same editor everywhere and don't have to remember
> >     different commands for different lists.
>
> I'm sorry, but what fancy editing features (or commands?) do you use with
> this mailing list? Does it even support any formatting? What if you wanted
> to attach a screenshot?
>
> Discourse has a standard Mardkown editor, with live side-by-side preview.
> It's the same Markdown formatting used everywhere -
> photography.StackExchange, GitHub, Slack, Trello etc. And if you insist,
> you can still use vim and copy/paste your message into the forum or email
> it, as I've previously explained
> <https://meta.discourse.org/t/setup-incoming-emails-e-mail/42026>.
>
> >     With the mail client I use the messages are properly threaded.
>
> Can you share a link from one thread to another?
>
> Can the community contribute to content curation by starring/liking posts?
>
> Can a post be edited collaboratively so it becomes a wiki article to
> up-to-date, authoritative content?
>
> Can you summarize a long topic? (example
> <https://meta.discourse.org/t/install-a-plugin/19157>)
>
> What happens if you want to access a discussion from somewhere else than
> your particular mail client? Or point someone to a discussion?
>
> How about new people who join and don't have any existing discussions? And
> don't tell me they'll bother downloading the archives - 99% won't.
>
> And I could go on an on but those who are resistant to change, are going to
> be resistant to change, no matter my rational arguments. It's a matter
> of individual
> mindset <https://hbr.org/2012/09/ten-reasons-people-resist-chang>.

[Jack Marxer]

Hi Dan,

I find the mailing list almost totally useless compared to a forum. Searching for help on

a specific topic is impossible unless I have previously saved all the emails, for example.

Forums and Wikis seem to be easily searchable with Google and almost always provide

sufficient assistance to deal with problems I've encountered.

Since DigiKam is not useful on a smartphone, I don't understand why having access to

news and help for it must be usable on a smartphone.

Your generous offer to set up a forum is most welcome. I hope you are able to do it.

Jack

[nonobio]

Hi,

I'm totally agree with what says Dan Dascalescu.

About the question if i use another email address for digikam mailing
list : no. I use my main gmail address, but wheni was receiving several
mails a day from the mailing list, with not clear subjects(numbers), i
quickly stopped the process by creating a filter to auto archive digikam
mails.

Then, i tried Thunderbird (i used it several years ago but not use it
anymore : i switched to gmail webmail)for specially browse the digikam
mailing list; with thunderbird i have real subjects instead of numbers,
but i don't understand the hierarchy (sometimes replys are on the right
down of the previous mail, sometimes not..).

My first impression when i discover Digikam, specially when i discovered
the website, was to not try it (sorry to says that). With the difficulty
to follow the community (or just to discover there was a community), i
thought Digikam wasn't a software for everyone.

But i tried it, and for my opinion, it is a very good software, maybe
the best alternative to Picasa on Windows.

Bye

[Michael Gerdau-3]

> Since you guys are continuing the discussion here about mailing lists
> vs. forum, I will let slide the accusation that I've hijacked the
> thread, and answer here.

Fair enough in my book :)

> There are TONS of bad "forums" out there. Let's not talk about "a
> forum".

Here we are in perfect agreement...

> I'm talking specifically about Discourse, which is developed by
> the same team who has developed StackOverflow. Discourse has excellent
> responsive UX on smartphones, and you only type your password once and
> stay logged in - I don't get this misconception that you need to log in
> and out all the time that someone else complained about.

[stuff about additional benefits of Discourse deleted]

...but we only marginally agree w/r to the virtues of Discourse.

<private opinion>

To phrase it positively:
Discourse seems to be "as good as it can get" as forums go. In terms of
useability it still falls short by a considerable amount when compared
to a ML.

Some time ago quite a few german Freifunk communities moved from ML to
Discourse for exactly the reasons you stated (and possibly some more).
Having followed those communities for some time I tried to follow suite.
To cut a long story short, I'm no longer following that community.

In my book even the mailing capabilities of Discourse aren't remotely
close to what an ML offers.

</private opinion>

> but guess
> what: on a mailing list, the concept of linking to a different thread
> does not even exist! What am I supposed to do, dump the other thread to
> a text file and attach it?

No. When you have to do that, either add a link from the archive
(readily available once you get used to using it) or (IMO the better
choice) start a new Thread with a (combined) new topic.

>     E-Mail has, for me, huge advantages:-
>
>         It comes to me, I don't have to open my browser and log in the
>         forum.  I'm on 60 or so E-Mail lists, if these were all forums I'd
>         be spending all my time logging in and out.
>
>
> Why would you need to log out?

Because on my mobile I don't want constant refresh of the connection?
Because I don't want connection kept alive that I'm not actively using?
Because I want to save on all sorts of spreading my data?

This are just 3 trivial reasons. I can easily add more :)

>         I can use the editor that *I* want to use to create and edit
>         posts, I use the same editor everywhere and don't have to remember
>         different commands for different lists.
>
>
> I'm sorry, but what fancy editing features (or commands?) do you use
> with this mailing list? Does it even support any formatting? What if you
> wanted to attach a screenshot?

It is about freedom of choice. You must not want that for yourself.
Allow others to have that requirement.

>         With the mail client I use the messages are properly threaded.
>
>
> Can you share a link from one thread to another?

Yes (see above).

> Can the community contribute to content curation by starring/liking posts?

No. This is a concept not used with ML.

<private opinion>
I don't want this starring/liking posts feature, never used it in a forum.
</private opinion>

> Can a post be edited collaboratively so it becomes a wiki article to
> up-to-date, authoritative content?

Again different concept.

<private opinion>
I prefer to have a seperate Wiki instead of a "one-size-fits-all"
approach, but others may differ.
</private opinion>

> Can you summarize a long topic? (example
> <https://meta.discourse.org/t/install-a-plugin/19157>)

Yes, but it is done slightly differently.

> What happens if you want to access a discussion from somewhere else than
> your particular mail client? Or point someone to a discussion?

Use the archive.

> How about new people who join and don't have any existing discussions?
> And don't tell me they'll bother downloading the archives - 99% won't.

And they shouldn't. The archive is not for consuming, but for looking
things up. Essentially the same as you do when you search in a forum.
Maybe it is me but I don't see a fundamental difference here.

> And I could go on an on but those who are resistant to change, are going
> to be resistant to change, no matter my rational arguments.

That is the first of your statements that I find seriously problematic.

To me this sounds as if you a ridiculing opinions that differ from yours
by claiming you are right by definition and whoever disagrees is wrong
by definition. If I got that wrong I apologize.

If I got it right I strongly ask you to refrain from such rants.

In my book (and I wrote this in the very first answer in this thread)
the question ML vs Forum has lots to do with personal taste, preferences
and working style and less with technological superiority.

And (I repeat myself) this is the stuff religious wars are made of.

Kind regards,
Michael
--
 Michael Gerdau       email: [hidden email]
 GPG-keys available on request or at public keyserver

Le 28/01/2017 à 13:16, Michael Gerdau a écrit :

> In my book (and I wrote this in the very first answer in this thread)
> the question ML vs Forum has lots to do with personal taste, preferences
> and working style and less with technological superiority.

nothing to do with superiority, but IMHO a different kind og use.

I rarely ask on this list because I use digikam mostly for tagging and
the way digikam works fits mu needs, but I read -time permitting- the
posts and learn much from them.

After what I delete the post if not really essential.

So I'm a long time user

If one wants only to ask a question and them do not mean to follow, the
forum is best.

I also use imap for my mails, so I have the same mails for every
computer I have to use, or web mail if I don't have a computer of my own.

One of the best forum system I know is this one:

http://www2.mgcontact.eu/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=74

an instance of phpBB - specially the left icon on each thread that says
if you have already read the thread or not and send you at the post
you,have to read.

But the fact is I use many mailing lists and have only one interface,
when every forum have it's one

also forum needs permanent access to the net (problematic when moving,
specially on foreign countries, when mail needs only some minutes dayly
access

anyway, this is a matter of taste. I do not object to somebody creating
a digikam forum

I just notice there is already a digikam forum

https://www.digikam.org/forum/

and a forum on kde for digikam

https://forum.kde.org/viewforum.php?f=255

and some more:

http://forum.pcinfo-web.com/digikam-t-4776.html

jdd

[Simon Frei]

I took the liberty to address your finishing statement first to get that
topic out of the way:

> In my book (and I wrote this in the very first answer in this thread)
> the question ML vs Forum has lots to do with personal taste, preferences
> and working style and less with technological superiority.
>
> And (I repeat myself) this is the stuff religious wars are made of.

100% agree. This discussion started completely on the wrong foot - now
rational arguments and mutual accusations keep the balance resulting in
an unconstructive discussion. I hope we can get back on track by
refraining from any kind of judgement and leaving "superiority" in
whatever aspect out of the discussion - refer to (potentially
subjective) advantages and disadvantages.

>> I'm talking specifically about Discourse, which is developed by
>> the same team who has developed StackOverflow. Discourse has excellent
>> responsive UX on smartphones, and you only type your password once and
>> stay logged in - I don't get this misconception that you need to log in
>> and out all the time that someone else complained about.
> [stuff about additional benefits of Discourse deleted]
>
> ...but we only marginally agree w/r to the virtues of Discourse.
>
> <private opinion>
>
> To phrase it positively:
> Discourse seems to be "as good as it can get" as forums go. In terms of
> useability it still falls short by a considerable amount when compared
> to a ML.
>
> Some time ago quite a few german Freifunk communities moved from ML to
> Discourse for exactly the reasons you stated (and possibly some more).
> Having followed those communities for some time I tried to follow suite.
> To cut a long story short, I'm no longer following that community.
>
> In my book even the mailing capabilities of Discourse aren't remotely
> close to what an ML offers.
>
> </private opinion>

Can you please give some explanation what the pitfalls were that you
experienced?
Discourse mailing capabilities without configuring specially to work
just as a ML is not optimal indeed. However when I last tested using a
configured forum as ML (for the user: one checkbox to tick) I got
exactly the behaviour of a ML (as far as I know it, I am not aware of
any "special features" of MLs). So if you don't want to use any of the
"forum aspects", you don't have to.

[Gilles Caulier-4]

I will add stone to this monument. As i work on Open Source since more than 15 year, i can share my experience about project communication (internal and external)

The ML is mandatory. I do not pass all my free time to wait a message. I check and respond when time permit. Open Source management is a very time consuming task. So the time is precious. The way to respond to mail at the right time is perfect. This is exactly the same deal in Office work. You manage the queue of messages and you manage more working time with a better efficiency. I speak a bout technical support.

Second point in favor of ML is bugzilla which is the angular stone of open source management using Agile method. Bugzilla is a database. Bugzilla as the full history of report, wishes, dysfunction, and fixes provided by the team. Bugzilla is in CC to ML. This cannot be management through a forum. In my cases, Bugzilla is a technical forums, where the core substance of the project can be analyzed. If the reports are well cataloged, it's can be easy to search and find dysfunctions and solutions, or to know when the problem have been fixed (or not).

A forum can be considerate as a place to share experience between the users. This is another story, where typically, the team do not interact as well.

So for me, a Forum is a plus, not a replacement of ML.

Best

Gilles Caulier

2017-01-28 13:16 GMT+01:00 Michael Gerdau <[hidden email]>:

> Since you guys are continuing the discussion here about mailing lists
> vs. forum, I will let slide the accusation that I've hijacked the
> thread, and answer here.

Fair enough in my book :)

> There are TONS of bad "forums" out there. Let's not talk about "a
> forum".

Here we are in perfect agreement...

> I'm talking specifically about Discourse, which is developed by
> the same team who has developed StackOverflow. Discourse has excellent
> responsive UX on smartphones, and you only type your password once and
> stay logged in - I don't get this misconception that you need to log in
> and out all the time that someone else complained about.

[stuff about additional benefits of Discourse deleted]

...but we only marginally agree w/r to the virtues of Discourse.

<private opinion>

To phrase it positively:
Discourse seems to be "as good as it can get" as forums go. In terms of
useability it still falls short by a considerable amount when compared
to a ML.

Some time ago quite a few german Freifunk communities moved from ML to
Discourse for exactly the reasons you stated (and possibly some more).
Having followed those communities for some time I tried to follow suite.
To cut a long story short, I'm no longer following that community.

In my book even the mailing capabilities of Discourse aren't remotely
close to what an ML offers.

</private opinion>

> but guess
> what: on a mailing list, the concept of linking to a different thread
> does not even exist! What am I supposed to do, dump the other thread to
> a text file and attach it?

No. When you have to do that, either add a link from the archive
(readily available once you get used to using it) or (IMO the better
choice) start a new Thread with a (combined) new topic.

>     E-Mail has, for me, huge advantages:-
>
>         It comes to me, I don't have to open my browser and log in the
>         forum.  I'm on 60 or so E-Mail lists, if these were all forums I'd
>         be spending all my time logging in and out.
>
>
> Why would you need to log out?

Because on my mobile I don't want constant refresh of the connection?
Because I don't want connection kept alive that I'm not actively using?
Because I want to save on all sorts of spreading my data?

This are just 3 trivial reasons. I can easily add more :)

>         I can use the editor that *I* want to use to create and edit
>         posts, I use the same editor everywhere and don't have to remember
>         different commands for different lists.
>
>
> I'm sorry, but what fancy editing features (or commands?) do you use
> with this mailing list? Does it even support any formatting? What if you
> wanted to attach a screenshot?

It is about freedom of choice. You must not want that for yourself.
Allow others to have that requirement.

>         With the mail client I use the messages are properly threaded.
>
>
> Can you share a link from one thread to another?

Yes (see above).

> Can the community contribute to content curation by starring/liking posts?

No. This is a concept not used with ML.

<private opinion>
I don't want this starring/liking posts feature, never used it in a forum.
</private opinion>

> Can a post be edited collaboratively so it becomes a wiki article to
> up-to-date, authoritative content?

Again different concept.

<private opinion>
I prefer to have a seperate Wiki instead of a "one-size-fits-all"
approach, but others may differ.
</private opinion>

> Can you summarize a long topic? (example
> <https://meta.discourse.org/t/install-a-plugin/19157>)

Yes, but it is done slightly differently.

> What happens if you want to access a discussion from somewhere else than
> your particular mail client? Or point someone to a discussion?

Use the archive.

> How about new people who join and don't have any existing discussions?
> And don't tell me they'll bother downloading the archives - 99% won't.

And they shouldn't. The archive is not for consuming, but for looking
things up. Essentially the same as you do when you search in a forum.
Maybe it is me but I don't see a fundamental difference here.

> And I could go on an on but those who are resistant to change, are going
> to be resistant to change, no matter my rational arguments.

That is the first of your statements that I find seriously problematic.

To me this sounds as if you a ridiculing opinions that differ from yours
by claiming you are right by definition and whoever disagrees is wrong
by definition. If I got that wrong I apologize.

If I got it right I strongly ask you to refrain from such rants.

In my book (and I wrote this in the very first answer in this thread)
the question ML vs Forum has lots to do with personal taste, preferences
and working style and less with technological superiority.

And (I repeat myself) this is the stuff religious wars are made of.

Kind regards,
Michael
--
 Michael Gerdau       email: [hidden email]
 GPG-keys available on request or at public keyserver

[Michael Gerdau-3]

>> In my book even the mailing capabilities of Discourse aren't remotely

>> close to what an ML offers.
>>
>> </private opinion>
> Can you please give some explanation what the pitfalls were that you
> experienced?
> Discourse mailing capabilities without configuring specially to work
> just as a ML is not optimal indeed. However when I last tested using a
> configured forum as ML (for the user: one checkbox to tick) I got
> exactly the behaviour of a ML (as far as I know it, I am not aware of
> any "special features" of MLs). So if you don't want to use any of the
> "forum aspects", you don't have to.

Well, it may have been the way those Discourse Fora had been set up. The
only thing I could get was something very similar to a digest of a ML of
all the articles written.

While that was a huge improvement compared to what a "normal" forum
delivers here it still does not match my working style.

All that had been about 2 or so years ago.

Kind regards,
Michael
--
 Michael Gerdau       email: [hidden email]
 GPG-keys available on request or at public keyserver

[Sveinn í Felli-2]

Þann lau 28.jan 2017 12:39, skrifaði Simon Frei:
> Discourse mailing capabilities without configuring specially to work
> just as a ML is not optimal indeed. However when I last tested using a
> configured forum as ML (for the user: one checkbox to tick) I got
> exactly the behaviour of a ML (as far as I know it, I am not aware of
> any "special features" of MLs). So if you don't want to use any of the
> "forum aspects", you don't have to.

Actually, it has been clear from the beginning that the DigiKam
developers want to stick to the KDE infrastructure.

KDE offers both Mailman mailinglists and phpBB forums, the latter seems
to have had its last major UI-overhaul in 2007. Maybe it's time for a
change; why not combine the two and make sure it's setup not to disrupt
the actual workflow, keeping existing archives and user IDs.

But I guess the way to propose such a change is at KDE itself, for
example <https://ev.kde.org/workinggroups/sysadmin.php>.

Best regards,
Sveinn í Felli

PS: JDD pointed out some DigiKam forums:

https://www.digikam.org/forum/
https://forum.kde.org/viewforum.php?f=255
http://forum.pcinfo-web.com/digikam-t-4776.html

Plus some language-specific ones.
None of these have had any considerable activity.

[Gilles Caulier-4]

There is many reason to still connected to KDE infrastructure :

- Bugzilla : the huge project history is here. Migrating outside can be complicated.

- translations.

- git repositories.

- web hosting.

etc...

Gilles Caulier

2017-01-28 14:53 GMT+01:00 Sveinn í Felli <[hidden email]>:

Þann lau 28.jan 2017 12:39, skrifaði Simon Frei:

Discourse mailing capabilities without configuring specially to work
just as a ML is not optimal indeed. However when I last tested using a
configured forum as ML (for the user: one checkbox to tick) I got
exactly the behaviour of a ML (as far as I know it, I am not aware of
any "special features" of MLs). So if you don't want to use any of the
"forum aspects", you don't have to.

Actually, it has been clear from the beginning that the DigiKam developers want to stick to the KDE infrastructure.

KDE offers both Mailman mailinglists and phpBB forums, the latter seems to have had its last major UI-overhaul in 2007. Maybe it's time for a change; why not combine the two and make sure it's setup not to disrupt the actual workflow, keeping existing archives and user IDs.

But I guess the way to propose such a change is at KDE itself, for example <https://ev.kde.org/workinggroups/sysadmin.php>.

Best regards,
Sveinn í Felli

PS: JDD pointed out some DigiKam forums:

https://www.digikam.org/forum/
https://forum.kde.org/viewforum.php?f=255
http://forum.pcinfo-web.com/digikam-t-4776.html

Plus some language-specific ones.
None of these have had any considerable activity.

[nonobio]

Hi :)

Thanks for showed me "nabble", it offers what i would : a mail notification to my and/or selected messages :)

Have a nice day