ICC file for Ricoh GXR

[pierpiotr]

Hello List,
Would anyone know how to get the ICC file for my Rixoh GXR - A12 mount
(I'd like to try RAW files) please ?
I'm a new user of a sophisticated camera (and somewhat of a noob
regarding Linux and Digikam, which I like very much).
P
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[tosca]

You don't need an ICC profile for your camera in order to treat RAW. It's for your computer screen that one would be handy (although not mandatory, especially at the beginning); but you'll have to buy some sensor to calibrate yourself you own device. A Datacolo Spyder for example: http://spyder.datacolor.com/

Marie-Noëlle

2012/7/15 Pierre Edelman <[hidden email]>

Hello List,
Would anyone know how to get the ICC file for my Rixoh GXR - A12 mount
(I'd like to try RAW files) please ?
I'm a new user of a sophisticated camera (and somewhat of a noob
regarding Linux and Digikam, which I like very much).
P
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[Martin (KDE)]

Am 15.07.2012 23:17, schrieb Marie-Noëlle Augendre:
> You don't need an ICC profile for your camera in order to treat RAW.
> It's for your computer screen that one would be handy (although not
> mandatory, especially at the beginning); but you'll have to buy some
> sensor to calibrate yourself you own device. A Datacolo Spyder for
> example: http://spyder.datacolor.com/

Oh, not quite right. In theory you need a ICC profile for every device
you use in your colour process. Usually these are
- Scanner
- Photo camera
- Monitor
- Printer

But it is NOT sufficient to use one profile for every device. You have
to create one for every combination of hardware that affects colour
presentation. For your camera this is usually light and lenses. For your
Printer you have to profile all types of inks with all types of paper
you use.

Where Marie is right (IMHO): You usually don't need a camera profile.
Only if you need exact colour reproduction under different conditions
(like technical product photography) with different devices it is
recomendet.

It is way more important to get the white balance right.

But if you want to do serious photo editing with your computer you need
a calibrated monitor.

Martin

>
> Marie-Noëlle
>
>
> 2012/7/15 Pierre Edelman <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>
>     Hello List,
>     Would anyone know how to get the ICC file for my Rixoh GXR - A12 mount
>     (I'd like to try RAW files) please ?
>     I'm a new user of a sophisticated camera (and somewhat of a noob
>     regarding Linux and Digikam, which I like very much).
>     P
>     _______________________________________________
>     Digikam-users mailing list
>     [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/digikam-users
>
>
>
>
> --
> <http://www.marie-noelle-augendre.com/photos/>
>
> Mes dernières photos sont dans ma galerie
> <http://www.marie-noelle-augendre.com/photos/>.
> Retrouvez-moi aussi sur mon blog <http://www.mnaugendre.com/>.
> Et parcourez les Cévennes à ma façon avec Cévennes Plurielles
> <http://www.cevennes-plurielles.com/>,
>
>
>
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[Remco Viëtor]

On Monday 16 July 2012 08:38:24 Martin wrote:

> Am 15.07.2012 23:17, schrieb Marie-Noëlle Augendre:

> > You don't need an ICC profile for your camera in order to treat RAW.

> > It's for your computer screen that one would be handy (although not

> > mandatory, especially at the beginning); but you'll have to buy some

> > sensor to calibrate yourself you own device. A Datacolo Spyder for

> > example: http://spyder.datacolor.com/

>

> Oh, not quite right. In theory you need a ICC profile for every device

> you use in your colour process. Usually these are

> - Scanner

> - Photo camera

> - Monitor

> - Printer

>

> But it is NOT sufficient to use one profile for every device. You have

> to create one for every combination of hardware that affects colour

> presentation. For your camera this is usually light and lenses. For your

> Printer you have to profile all types of inks with all types of paper

> you use.

>

> Where Marie is right (IMHO): You usually don't need a camera profile.

> Only if you need exact colour reproduction under different conditions

> (like technical product photography) with different devices it is

> recomendet.

>

> It is way more important to get the white balance right.

>

> But if you want to do serious photo editing with your computer you need

> a calibrated monitor.

>

 

Fully agreed. And the reason is simple: your screen is what you use to judge your edits, and where you decide what image you want (warmer/colder colours, saturation, ...). So you want the image on your screen as close as possible to the final printed image (or to what others can see, if you post on the web).

 

I know, 90% of the other monitors will not be set up properly, but at least you know what you send out, so that source of errors is removed ;)

 

That said, if you want to profile your camera, have a look at the 'color passport', a colour chart/white balance card sold with a program that allows you to create a profile for your camera (takes about 5-10 min to generate a profile). (Though, if you need a camera profile for high level colour accuracy, see a specialist..)

 

And if you go that way, you'll want to use the white balance card to set the proper white balance, either while shooting or in post production (the only difference between the two concerns the embedded jpeg in the RAW, camera white balance setting has NO influence on the RAW data)

 

Remco

 

 

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[pierpiotr]

Remco Viëtor <remco.vietor@...> writes:

>
>
> On Monday 16 July 2012 08:38:24 Martin wrote:
> > Am 15.07.2012 23:17, schrieb Marie-Noëlle Augendre:
> > > You don't need an ICC profile for your camera in order to treat RAW.
> > > It's for your computer screen that one would be handy (although not
> > > mandatory, especially at the beginning); but you'll have to buy some
> > > sensor to calibrate yourself you own device. A Datacolo Spyder for
> > > example: http://spyder.datacolor.com/
> >
> > Oh, not quite right. In theory you need a ICC profile for every device
> > you use in your colour process. Usually these are
> > - Scanner
> > - Photo camera
> > - Monitor
> > - Printer
> >
> > But it is NOT sufficient to use one profile for every device. You have
> > to create one for every combination of hardware that affects colour
> > presentation. For your camera this is usually light and lenses. For your
> > Printer you have to profile all types of inks with all types of paper
> > you use.
> >
> > Where Marie is right (IMHO): You usually don't need a camera profile.
> > Only if you need exact colour reproduction under different conditions
> > (like technical product photography) with different devices it is
> > recomendet.
> >
> > It is way more important to get the white balance right.
> >
> > But if you want to do serious photo editing with your computer you need
> > a calibrated monitor.
> >
>  
> Fully agreed. And the reason is simple: your screen is what you use to judge

your edits, and where you decide what image you want (warmer/colder colours,
saturation, ...). So you want the image on your screen as close as possible to
the final printed image (or to what others can see, if you post on the web).
>  
> I know, 90% of the other monitors will not be set up properly, but at least
you know what you send out, so that source of errors is removed ;)
>  
> That said, if you want to profile your camera, have a look at the 'color
passport', a colour chart/white balance card sold with a program that allows you
to create a profile for your camera (takes about 5-10 min to generate a
profile). (Though, if you need a camera profile for high level colour accuracy,
see a specialist..)
>  
> And if you go that way, you'll want to use the white balance card to set the
proper white balance, either while shooting or in post production (the only
difference between the two concerns the embedded jpeg in the RAW, camera white
balance setting has NO influence on the RAW data)

>  
> Remco
>  
>  
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Digikam-users mailing list
> Digikam-users@...
> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/digikam-users
>

Thansk you all,
I am now reading about RAW in the user manual. (quite interesting) . There are
links to ICC files for common camera but the GXR A12 mount does not appear in
the list (ufraw site). The Ricoh site does not have it and there seems to be no
contact mail or phone :-(


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[Remco Viëtor]

On Thursday 19 July 2012 10:55:26 pierre wrote:

...

>

> Thansk you all,

> I am now reading about RAW in the user manual. (quite interesting) . There are

> links to ICC files for common camera but the GXR A12 mount does not appear in

> the list (ufraw site). The Ricoh site does not have it and there seems to be no

> contact mail or phone :-(

 

 

Don't worry about it, unless you have really special needs concerning colour accuracy. There might be some here that use camera profiles (other than the build-in profiles, which are IMHO of limited value), but I'd guess not many.

 

If you can develop your RAW files with the software you have, go for it. And if not, the problem is not due to a missing ICC profile.

 

You're better off calibrating and profiling your screen and investing in a white balance card.

 

There's also a good series of tutorials (not only about RAW and colour management) at http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials.htm

 

Remco

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[Martin (KDE)]

Am 19.07.2012 12:55, schrieb pierre:
> Remco Viëtor <remco.vietor@...> writes:
>
(snip)
>
> Thansk you all,
> I am now reading about RAW in the user manual. (quite interesting) . There are
> links to ICC files for common camera but the GXR A12 mount does not appear in
> the list (ufraw site). The Ricoh site does not have it and there seems to be no
> contact mail or phone :-(

The default profiles from manufacturer are of limited use (at best). I
tried the Canon profiles available with the canon software and they were
worse than none.

A general profile for one camera type is limited as it does not reflect
the lens and light you are using. If you want to do serious raw
processing it is best to use darktable (IMHO, but linux only).

Martin
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[tosca]

Question is why exactly do you want a ICC profile for your camera? It's only useful for very specific usages (and I'm not even able to say which...) Once you've transfered your RAW files to your computer, you're going to use your computer screen and may be a printer to work on them; those are the very first devices you need to calibrate, and those you'll need ICC profiles for.

Marie-Noëlle

2012/7/19 pierre <[hidden email]>

Thansk you all,
I am now reading about RAW in the user manual. (quite interesting) . There are
links to ICC files for common camera but the GXR A12 mount does not appear in
the list (ufraw site). The Ricoh site does not have it and there seems to be no
contact mail or phone :-(

--


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Retrouvez-moi aussi sur mon blog.
Et parcourez les Cévennes à ma façon avec Cévennes Plurielles,


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[Martin (KDE)]

Am 19.07.2012 23:21, schrieb Marie-Noëlle Augendre:
> Question is why exactly do you want a ICC profile for your camera? It's
> only useful for very specific usages (and I'm not even able to say
> which...) Once you've transfered your RAW files to your computer, you're
> going to use your computer screen and may be a printer to work on them;
> those are the very first devices you need to calibrate, and those you'll
> need ICC profiles for.

A profiled camera is required if you have to produce the exact same
colour of an object under different lights (outside in bright sunlight
or in the shadow of a tree or in your studio) with different lenses and
different cameras. This requires an exact white balance setup and a
colour profiling.

As an example: If you want to document the change of colour of a subject
you have to make sure that the colour in your photo has a reference (the
ICC profile and the base target you used for profiling).

But If you see photograph as an art and your personal way of seeing
things profiling is wast of time. It is wast of time if you don't use a
exact profiled monitor (and with this I mean monitors in the 2000€
range) an profiled working environment (lights around your monitor) and
a profiled printer.

IMHO the first step is to profile your monitor and use labs using
profiled printers (and share their printer profile). Profiling your
monitor is not that expensive (about 100€ - 200€). For this you have to
use at least a monitor with IPS or VA panel and about 95% match of sRGB
gamut.

Yust my thoughts
Martin

>
> Marie-Noëlle
>
> 2012/7/19 pierre <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>
>
>     Thansk you all,
>     I am now reading about RAW in the user manual. (quite interesting) .
>     There are
>     links to ICC files for common camera but the GXR A12 mount does not
>     appear in
>     the list (ufraw site). The Ricoh site does not have it and there
>     seems to be no
>     contact mail or phone :-(
>
>
> --
> <http://www.marie-noelle-augendre.com/photos/>
>
> Mes dernières photos sont dans ma galerie
> <http://www.marie-noelle-augendre.com/photos/>.
> Retrouvez-moi aussi sur mon blog <http://www.mnaugendre.com/>.
> Et parcourez les Cévennes à ma façon avec Cévennes Plurielles
> <http://www.cevennes-plurielles.com/>,
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Digikam-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/digikam-users

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[tosca]

Thanks for these precisions.
In these specific usages you're refering to, I'm just wondering whether these photographers wouldn't rather use tethering methods; so having an ICC profile for their camera would be more or less irrevelant as they will use their computer screen rather than the camera display.

Marie-Noëlle

2012/7/20 Martin (KDE) <[hidden email]>

A profiled camera is required if you have to produce the exact same
colour of an object under different lights (outside in bright sunlight
or in the shadow of a tree or in your studio) with different lenses and
different cameras. This requires an exact white balance setup and a
colour profiling.

As an example: If you want to document the change of colour of a subject
you have to make sure that the colour in your photo has a reference (the
ICC profile and the base target you used for profiling).

But If you see photograph as an art and your personal way of seeing
things profiling is wast of time. It is wast of time if you don't use a
exact profiled monitor (and with this I mean monitors in the 2000€
range) an profiled working environment (lights around your monitor) and
a profiled printer.

IMHO the first step is to profile your monitor and use labs using
profiled printers (and share their printer profile). Profiling your
monitor is not that expensive (about 100€ - 200€). For this you have to
use at least a monitor with IPS or VA panel and about 95% match of sRGB
gamut.

Yust my thoughts
Martin

--


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Retrouvez-moi aussi sur mon blog.
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[Martin (KDE)]

Am 20.07.2012 10:07, schrieb Marie-Noëlle Augendre:
> Thanks for these precisions.
> In these specific usages you're refering to, I'm just wondering whether
> these photographers wouldn't rather use tethering methods; so having an
> ICC profile for their camera would be more or less irrevelant as they
> will use their computer screen rather than the camera display.

Hm, I don't know what they use but I doubt that they use the camera
display for more than checking the scene and a basic guess of exposure.

Human eye is not exact regarding colour (neither it is exact regarding
exposure). That is the reason why profiling is available and used. How
do you know if the red is the same red as in the shooting a few hours
ago in the morning sun. If you need technical exact colour you have to
use technical methods to accomplish this.

I once read about a fashion photographer who profiled every shooting he
did. If the shooting took more than a day he profiled it more than once.
That does not mean, that he will not adjust the colour in post
processing but the base he can start from is known. Keep in mind that
they take thousands of pictures. So better use some time before and set
a fixed and well known base point than changing colour in every photo
individually.

Afaik you don't have to create an ICC profile every time. I think that
professional programs can handle colour target (like IT8) internally.

Martin

>
> Marie-Noëlle
>
> 2012/7/20 Martin (KDE) <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>
>
>     A profiled camera is required if you have to produce the exact same
>     colour of an object under different lights (outside in bright sunlight
>     or in the shadow of a tree or in your studio) with different lenses and
>     different cameras. This requires an exact white balance setup and a
>     colour profiling.
>
>     As an example: If you want to document the change of colour of a subject
>     you have to make sure that the colour in your photo has a reference (the
>     ICC profile and the base target you used for profiling).
>
>     But If you see photograph as an art and your personal way of seeing
>     things profiling is wast of time. It is wast of time if you don't use a
>     exact profiled monitor (and with this I mean monitors in the 2000€
>     range) an profiled working environment (lights around your monitor) and
>     a profiled printer.
>
>     IMHO the first step is to profile your monitor and use labs using
>     profiled printers (and share their printer profile). Profiling your
>     monitor is not that expensive (about 100€ - 200€). For this you have to
>     use at least a monitor with IPS or VA panel and about 95% match of sRGB
>     gamut.
>
>     Yust my thoughts
>     Martin
>
>
>
>
> --
> <http://www.marie-noelle-augendre.com/photos/>
>
> Mes dernières photos sont dans ma galerie
> <http://www.marie-noelle-augendre.com/photos/>.
> Retrouvez-moi aussi sur mon blog <http://www.mnaugendre.com/>.
> Et parcourez les Cévennes à ma façon avec Cévennes Plurielles
> <http://www.cevennes-plurielles.com/>,
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Digikam-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/digikam-users

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[Remco Viëtor]

On Friday 20 July 2012 10:07:47 Marie-Noëlle Augendre wrote:

> Thanks for these precisions.

> In these specific usages you're refering to, I'm just wondering whether

> these photographers wouldn't rather use tethering methods; so having an ICC

> profile for their camera would be more or less irrevelant as they will use

> their computer screen rather than the camera display.

 

Tethering wouldn't change anything about the need for a camera profile:

it's still the *camera* optics and sensor that determine the captured data,

the screen only displays what the camera produced (probably by using the same camera-generated jpeg preview that's embedded in RAW files).

 

Remco

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[tosca]

Aren't we speaking about RAW (that was the initial question)?
I don't think the camera profile would be used for anything than display the JPEG format on the camera LCD, thus no influence on the RAW captured data. And for any other viewing device, it'll be the own profile of this other device (screen, printer, ...) that has to be used, even if it is to display the embedded JPEG.

Marie-Noëlle

2012/7/20 Remco Viëtor <[hidden email]>

On Friday 20 July 2012 10:07:47 Marie-Noëlle Augendre wrote:

> Thanks for these precisions.

> In these specific usages you're refering to, I'm just wondering whether

> these photographers wouldn't rather use tethering methods; so having an ICC

> profile for their camera would be more or less irrevelant as they will use

> their computer screen rather than the camera display.

 

Tethering wouldn't change anything about the need for a camera profile:

it's still the *camera* optics and sensor that determine the captured data,

the screen only displays what the camera produced (probably by using the same camera-generated jpeg preview that's embedded in RAW files).

 

Remco

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[Remco Viëtor]

On Friday 20 July 2012 11:44:28 Marie-Noëlle Augendre wrote:

> Aren't we speaking about RAW (that was the initial question)?

> I don't think the camera profile would be used for anything than display

> the JPEG format on the camera LCD, thus no influence on the RAW captured

> data. And for any other viewing device, it'll be the own profile of this

> other device (screen, printer, ...) that has to be used, even if it is to

> display the embedded JPEG.

 

What I understood from OP: he was looking for an ICC profile to apply to the RAW data at the moment of developing the RAW file (darktable, Lightroom, etc.).

 

A camera profile NEVER changes the captured RAW data, it is used in post production to apply a correction to the colours as seen by the camera to get the correct colours in your working colour space (i.e. to transform what the camera saw into what it should have seen... ), the same way a screen profile is used to apply a correction to the colours from your working space to get them to display correctly.

 

So if you shoot tethered, you'll indeed need a device profile for the monitor, to get the best possible display while shooting, but a camera profile is of no use /there/.

 

Remco

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