Generic Linux question

[Paul Verizzo]

Why is it that the Linux repositories are still at dk 1.9?  I don't understand how this works.

Thank you Giles for compiling dk into Windows regardless of flaws.

I have spent the last several weeks trying out about ten Linux distros in Virtual Box.  Fun, but no game changer.  In terms of ease of setup and use, coming from Windows, I found Linux Mint 11 the best.  Linux Mint Debian lagging and more difficult to set up the "disk."  PC Linux OS medium good.  Could not believe how bad Kubuntu was, how clunky!  Still no luck with the new method of installing Guest Additions to work well. 

Closing, the question is about how Linux apps are updated......

Paul



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[FireFly]

Not sure entirely how they get updated, other than updated when someone creates a new package.

I'm on Arch Linux and that is at Digikam 2.0, although I'll warn you it's NOT a eassy install (compared to say Ubuntu, or PCLinuxOS or...)

 

- James Duerr

E-mail: [hidden email]
---------------------
Discover a lost art - play Marbles. May 2004
www.marillion.com

---

From: Paul Verizzo <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2011 8:34 PM
Subject: [Digikam-users] Generic Linux question

Why is it that the Linux repositories are still at dk 1.9?  I don't understand how this works.

Thank you Giles for compiling dk into Windows regardless of flaws.

I have spent the last several weeks trying out about ten Linux distros in Virtual Box.  Fun, but no game changer.  In terms of ease of setup and use, coming from Windows, I found Linux Mint 11 the best.  Linux Mint Debian lagging and more difficult to set up the "disk."  PC Linux OS medium good.  Could not believe how bad Kubuntu was, how clunky!  Still no luck with the new method of installing Guest Additions to work well. 

Closing, the question is about how Linux apps are updated......

Paul

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[Remco Viëtor]

On Saturday 27 August 2011 22:52:11 FireFly wrote:
> Not sure entirely how they get updated, other than updated when someone
> creates a new package.
>
> I'm on Arch Linux and that is at Digikam 2.0, although I'll warn you it's
> NOT a eassy install (compared to say Ubuntu, or PCLinuxOS or...)
>
...

One thing that slows down the appearance of new versions is dependencies.
For me, updating to Digikam 2.0 implied updating to KDE 4.7, which is a lot of
packages to update. Packagers have to ensure that everything works with the
'standard' installation of a given distribution version,and they might
hesitate to change that much (KDE 4.6 -> 4.7 has a few important changes in
for instance e-mail handling).

Also, They often add patches of their own (bug corrections, etc).

Fwiw, OpenSuSE (11.4 for me) often has the newest versions reasonably quickly
if you are willing to use some 'non-standard' repositories.

Remco
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Le 28/08/2011 09:13, Remco Viëtor a écrit :

> Fwiw, OpenSuSE (11.4 for me) often has the newest versions reasonably quickly
> if you are willing to use some 'non-standard' repositories.

same for me. Compiling digiKam allows me to have the vey last version
with stable kde version when the distro available one needs much more
recent kde (and I tested new kde enough to know it's not that stable)

there are too many version available to have all of them ready

jdd

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[Photonoxx]

The most of officials repositories (of not rolling release distribution)  
don't upgrade software version. They take in charge minor/security  
updates, but they don't change to a new version until a new release of the  
distrib is out, and this time, upgrades are only available on the new  
release official repository, so you need to upgrade your distrib and wait  
generally 6 months between each new distrib's version. In a way it's a  
good thing for stability and bug fix, but it's not for using last  
softwares versions.

Hopefully, alternative repositories exists that offer to you to find  
binary package of new version of a lot of softwares, permitting to keep  
your distrib with upgraded softwares. For Mint and Ubuntu based distribs  
these repositories are mainly the Launchpad's PPAs (but basically, it's a  
webspace with appropriates files presents which give infos and packages  
related to repository content). An inconvenient is you find very good  
thing (like Philip Johnson's PPA) but also very bad things in PPAs... So  
it's to use with care and advice.

Personally, I'm testing OpenSuse for now, after some years with Ubuntu. At  
the beginning, it was for Tumbleweed which is a rolling release repository  
for Opensuse, but for now, Digikam still is in 1.9 version in Tumbleweed  
(mainly due to will of stability I guess), so for now I use a repository  
with the latest stable KDE release, and digikam 2.0 which works fine for  
now on my computer.

Rolling release could be an alternative, the principle is these distribs  
don't works with periodic release, they're continuously updated, but  
they're some time more complex to install and set, and you don't always  
have access to the new software's versions instantly (see the tumbleweed  
example above), but with some it seems to be pretty fast like with  
ArchLinux, but I guess it's need some knowledges and may have some  
stability issue some time (since the principle here is not to extensively  
test new packages before put them in repo).

Le Sun, 28 Aug 2011 05:34:24 +0200, Paul Verizzo <[hidden email]> a écrit:

> Why is it that the Linux repositories are still at dk 1.9? I don't  
> understand
> how this works.
>
> Thank you Giles for compiling dk into Windows regardless of flaws.
>
> I have spent the last several weeks trying out about ten Linux distros in
> Virtual Box. Fun, but no game changer. In terms of ease of setup and  
> use, coming
> from Windows, I found Linux Mint 11 the best. Linux Mint Debian lagging  
> and more
> difficult to set up the "disk." PC Linux OS medium good. Could not  
> believe how
> bad Kubuntu was, how clunky! Still no luck with the new method of  
> installing
> Guest Additions to work well.
>
> Closing, the question is about how Linux apps are updated......
>
> Paul
>
>

--
--
Nicolas Boulesteix
Photographe chasseur de lueurs
http://www.photonoxx.fr
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[Vlado Plaga]

On Sat, 27 Aug 2011 23:34:24 -0400
Paul Verizzo <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I have spent the last several weeks trying out about ten Linux
> distros in Virtual Box.

[...]

> Closing, the question is about how Linux apps are updated......

Others have already supplied relatively detailes answers. I just want
to add: the way software is distributed in Linux simply is quite
different to the Windows (or Mac OS) way. You may notice that many
complex applications only require a fraction of the disk space
comparable applications use on these commercial systems. My e-mail
program (Claws Mail) for example has an "uncompressed size" of less
than 4 MBytes, according to the package manager. On Mac OS 10.5 "Mail"
uses 289 MBytes! One reason free software applications can be so small
is because they share a lot of "libraries" - but that of course makes
it difficult to update, because quite often newer versions of
applications require newer versions of the libraries which are no
longer compatible to the older versions... thus braking other
applications that depend on the same library. Of course package
management software is there to make sure such brakeage does not happen,
but it's a complex issue nevertheless.

Also free software more often than commercial software follows a
"release often, release early" philosophy. This of course means that
released software is not that stable and can have more bugs. The severe
bugs in DigiKam 2.0.0 could be one reason it is not yet included in
Debian "unstable" (a kind of rolling release) which otherwise often is
quite fast in picking up new versions:

- Face recognition is in the user interface, but according to developer
  Marcel Wiesweg it does not work yet:
  http://mail.kde.org/pipermail/digikam-users/2011-August/013766.html
- The new XMP sidecar support is only half-implemented:
  http://mail.kde.org/pipermail/digikam-users/2011-August/013996.html
  https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=220545
- On many (Debian Linux) platforms digiKam 2.0 does not even compile:
  https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=279581
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endianness#Endianness_and_operating_systems_on_architectures

Regards,

Vlado

--

       Vlado Plaga                        __o
    http://vlado-do.de                 _o/\<,_
    update: 2011-08-14                 (U)/ (u)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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[Rinus]

Hi Paul,
Op 29-08-11 22:03, Vlado Plaga schreef:
> On Sat, 27 Aug 2011 23:34:24 -0400
> Paul Verizzo<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>
>> I have spent the last several weeks trying out about ten Linux
>> distros in Virtual Box.
I have been there and I would no one advice to, make a dual boot or
switch completely, which I admit is not a simple matter.

> [...]
>
>> Closing, the question is about how Linux apps are updated......
> Others have already supplied relatively detailes answers. I just want
> to add: the way software is distributed in Linux simply is quite
> different to the Windows (or Mac OS) way. You may notice that many
> complex applications only require a fraction of the disk space
> comparable applications use on these commercial systems. My e-mail
> program (Claws Mail) for example has an "uncompressed size" of less
> than 4 MBytes, according to the package manager. On Mac OS 10.5 "Mail"
> uses 289 MBytes! One reason free software applications can be so small
> is because they share a lot of "libraries" - but that of course makes
> it difficult to update, because quite often newer versions of
> applications require newer versions of the libraries which are no
> longer compatible to the older versions... thus braking other
> applications that depend on the same library. Of course package
> management software is there to make sure such brakeage does not happen,
> but it's a complex issue nevertheless.
>
> Also free software more often than commercial software follows a
> "release often, release early" philosophy. This of course means that
> released software is not that stable and can have more bugs.

I am 6 months on Ubuntu, found for over 60 applications alternatives.
Exept for the update service there is no appliction that messed up my
system in 6 months once.
Never lost any data. In windows I was half of the time busy to keep my
system going and to restore lost data or many times restore the entire
system, which took emensely amounts of time. In Ubuntu I have my system
running again within at most a couple of hours.
In windows I had on dayly basis trouble to keep my internet going. Now,
with Ubuntu if my pc runs I have connection. Windows I had to restart at
least 2 times within evry hour, I have now may one reboot in a week.
Although I worked under windows mostly with free software too, the
applications that I heavy paid for did not have any exeption related to
instabillity, and beside that the never could do what you expected,
always you had to something extra or somthing new. A never ending story.
Windows became from 95 worse with every new release, I think in the
Linux world it is the other way around, at least till now I believe that.
I worked with a lot of different photomanagement programs. Digikam is
the best, the most intuitive and productive I ever used. First time
since dos I have a stable system.

Regards,
Rinus

> The severe
> bugs in DigiKam 2.0.0 could be one reason it is not yet included in
> Debian "unstable" (a kind of rolling release) which otherwise often is
> quite fast in picking up new versions:
>
> - Face recognition is in the user interface, but according to developer
>    Marcel Wiesweg it does not work yet:
>    http://mail.kde.org/pipermail/digikam-users/2011-August/013766.html
> - The new XMP sidecar support is only half-implemented:
>    http://mail.kde.org/pipermail/digikam-users/2011-August/013996.html
>    https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=220545
> - On many (Debian Linux) platforms digiKam 2.0 does not even compile:
>    https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=279581
>    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endianness#Endianness_and_operating_systems_on_architectures

Thats all true, but the list of great features working is huge compared
to this.
> Regards,
>
> Vlado
>

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[Jean-François Rabasse]

On Mon, 29 Aug 2011, Vlado Plaga wrote:

> Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 22:03:16 +0200
> From: Vlado Plaga <[hidden email]>
> Reply-To: digiKam - Home Manage your photographs as a professional with the
>     power of open source <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Digikam-users] Generic Linux question
>
> On Sat, 27 Aug 2011 23:34:24 -0400
> Paul Verizzo <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I have spent the last several weeks trying out about ten Linux
>> distros in Virtual Box.
>
> [...]
>
>> Closing, the question is about how Linux apps are updated......
>
> Others have already supplied relatively detailes answers. I just want
> to add: the way software is distributed in Linux simply is quite
> different to the Windows (or Mac OS) way. You may notice that many
> complex applications only require a fraction of the disk space
> comparable applications use on these commercial systems. My e-mail
> program (Claws Mail) for example has an "uncompressed size" of less
> than 4 MBytes, according to the package manager. On Mac OS 10.5 "Mail"
> uses 289 MBytes! One reason free software applications can be so small
> is because they share a lot of "libraries" - but that of course makes
> it difficult to update, because quite often newer versions of
> applications require newer versions of the libraries which are no
> longer compatible to the older versions... thus braking other
> applications that depend on the same library. Of course package
> management software is there to make sure such brakeage does not happen,
> but it's a complex issue nevertheless.

I fully agree.
Shared libraries are an efficient way to optimise system resources and
providing only one copy of code for several applications.
But the price to pay is that all the environment must be consistent.
When someone starts to install several versions of the same library
because several applications require different versions, the interest
of shareable code begins to fell down.
When recompiling an application requires to upgrade tens of librairies
and tens of other applications, it's probably not worth the game, and
in some cases can turn the system into an unstable environment.
And that's why Linux distributions are late to offer the freshly new
versions of hundreds of applications, just because packagers have to
ensure consistency.

Using Virtual boxes may be a turnaround, in some cases. But where is,
then, the interest of using shareable libraries if your computer RAM
hosts several versions of a library, one per running application,
one per box.
The more simple solution would be to compile and link -static,
the binary program will be bigger, but won't interfere anymore with
the O.S. evolutionsi and other applications.

> Also free software more often than commercial software follows a
> "release often, release early" philosophy. This of course means that
> released software is not that stable and can have more bugs. The severe
> bugs in DigiKam 2.0.0 could be one reason it is not yet included in
> Debian "unstable" (a kind of rolling release) which otherwise often is
> quite fast in picking up new versions:

True !
The "release often" philosophy turns end users into beta testers and
make installed systems less and less stable.
It's not anecdotic to see that the two major commercial Linux packagers,
Novell/SuSE and Red-Hat, offers two products lines :
A standard users Linux, targeted at home computers and office desktops,
and a so called "enterprise" distribution (SLES from Novell or RHEL
from Red-Hat). Enterprise distributions are really stable, but you have
to buy them. And they are always "late", compared to personal distros.
With stable enterprise Linux, you won't go on the Internet because you
don't have the latest media player plugin, or the proper Java vm plugin,
etc.

There's no ideal solution. Either become an "upgrade addict" and
"recompiler geek", or accept your computer as it is and accept the idea
to use some "old" programs. (Old may be six months :-)
Most "old" programs that were very useful six months ago or one year
ago, may still be useful today.

<Joking...>
A good rule could be "When version <N> of your prefered program is
released, it's time for you to install stable version <N-1>".
</Joking...>

Best,
Jean-François
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[Martin (KDE)]

Am 29.08.2011 22:32, schrieb sleepless:
> Hi Paul,
> Op 29-08-11 22:03, Vlado Plaga schreef:
>> On Sat, 27 Aug 2011 23:34:24 -0400
>> Paul Verizzo<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>>
>>> I have spent the last several weeks trying out about ten Linux
>>> distros in Virtual Box.
> I have been there and I would no one advice to, make a dual boot or
> switch completely, which I admit is not a simple matter.

A complete switch may be simple or may be not. This depends on several
experiences a user had before. An experienced windows user may have
problems with the unix/linux way of doing stuff. On the other hand: my
daughter for example has problems with windows. She is used to linux and
always try to run dolphin to handle her files. She says that windows is
so complicated.

I have switched to linux completely (almost, there are two programs out
there I need an VM for - once or twice a year). And it was not hard.

>> [...]
>>
>>> Closing, the question is about how Linux apps are updated......
>> Others have already supplied relatively detailes answers. I just want
>> to add: the way software is distributed in Linux simply is quite
>> different to the Windows (or Mac OS) way. You may notice that many
>> complex applications only require a fraction of the disk space
>> comparable applications use on these commercial systems. My e-mail
>> program (Claws Mail) for example has an "uncompressed size" of less
>> than 4 MBytes, according to the package manager. On Mac OS 10.5 "Mail"
>> uses 289 MBytes! One reason free software applications can be so small
>> is because they share a lot of "libraries" - but that of course makes
>> it difficult to update, because quite often newer versions of
>> applications require newer versions of the libraries which are no
>> longer compatible to the older versions... thus braking other
>> applications that depend on the same library. Of course package
>> management software is there to make sure such brakeage does not happen,
>> but it's a complex issue nevertheless.
>>
>> Also free software more often than commercial software follows a
>> "release often, release early" philosophy. This of course means that
>> released software is not that stable and can have more bugs.
> I am 6 months on Ubuntu, found for over 60 applications alternatives.
> Exept for the update service there is no appliction that messed up my
> system in 6 months once.
> Never lost any data. In windows I was half of the time busy to keep my
> system going and to restore lost data or many times restore the entire
> system, which took emensely amounts of time. In Ubuntu I have my system
> running again within at most a couple of hours.
> In windows I had on dayly basis trouble to keep my internet going. Now,
> with Ubuntu if my pc runs I have connection. Windows I had to restart at
> least 2 times within evry hour, I have now may one reboot in a week.
> Although I worked under windows mostly with free software too, the
> applications that I heavy paid for did not have any exeption related to
> instabillity, and beside that the never could do what you expected,
> always you had to something extra or somthing new. A never ending story.
> Windows became from 95 worse with every new release, I think in the
> Linux world it is the other way around, at least till now I believe that.
> I worked with a lot of different photomanagement programs. Digikam is
> the best, the most intuitive and productive I ever used. First time
> since dos I have a stable system.

I have to use windows every now and then and it is rock stable. Never
had data loss in the last ten years. With my linux boxes I had crashes
and data loss up to a no longer usable system (about 5 years ago). This
to solve needed an experienced admin. Linux (as a OS, not the plain
kernel) is a good system, but it is far from perfect. There are so many
things left to do.

Sometimes you have to pay for your freedom. And it is worth to do so.

What I don't get: There are many users out there who want to let windows
behind. But they do not switch to linux but Mac OS-X. This OS is
completely different from windows as linux is, but they don't use linux.

Martin

>
> Regards,
> Rinus
>> The severe
>> bugs in DigiKam 2.0.0 could be one reason it is not yet included in
>> Debian "unstable" (a kind of rolling release) which otherwise often is
>> quite fast in picking up new versions:
>>
>> - Face recognition is in the user interface, but according to developer
>>    Marcel Wiesweg it does not work yet:
>>    http://mail.kde.org/pipermail/digikam-users/2011-August/013766.html
>> - The new XMP sidecar support is only half-implemented:
>>    http://mail.kde.org/pipermail/digikam-users/2011-August/013996.html
>>    https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=220545
>> - On many (Debian Linux) platforms digiKam 2.0 does not even compile:
>>    https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=279581
>>  
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endianness#Endianness_and_operating_systems_on_architectures
>>
> Thats all true, but the list of great features working is huge compared
> to this.
>> Regards,
>>
>> Vlado
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Digikam-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/digikam-users

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[Rinus]

Op 30-08-11 08:21, Martin (KDE) schreef:

> Am 29.08.2011 22:32, schrieb sleepless:
>> Hi Paul,
>> Op 29-08-11 22:03, Vlado Plaga schreef:
>>> On Sat, 27 Aug 2011 23:34:24 -0400
>>> Paul Verizzo<[hidden email]>   wrote:
>>>
>>>> I have spent the last several weeks trying out about ten Linux
>>>> distros in Virtual Box.
>> I have been there and I would no one advice to, make a dual boot or
>> switch completely, which I admit is not a simple matter.
> A complete switch may be simple or may be not. This depends on several
> experiences a user had before. An experienced windows user may have
> problems with the unix/linux way of doing stuff. On the other hand: my
> daughter for example has problems with windows. She is used to linux and
> always try to run dolphin to handle her files. She says that windows is
> so complicated.
>
> I have switched to linux completely (almost, there are two programs out
> there I need an VM for - once or twice a year). And it was not hard.
>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>>> Closing, the question is about how Linux apps are updated......
>>> Others have already supplied relatively detailes answers. I just want
>>> to add: the way software is distributed in Linux simply is quite
>>> different to the Windows (or Mac OS) way. You may notice that many
>>> complex applications only require a fraction of the disk space
>>> comparable applications use on these commercial systems. My e-mail
>>> program (Claws Mail) for example has an "uncompressed size" of less
>>> than 4 MBytes, according to the package manager. On Mac OS 10.5 "Mail"
>>> uses 289 MBytes! One reason free software applications can be so small
>>> is because they share a lot of "libraries" - but that of course makes
>>> it difficult to update, because quite often newer versions of
>>> applications require newer versions of the libraries which are no
>>> longer compatible to the older versions... thus braking other
>>> applications that depend on the same library. Of course package
>>> management software is there to make sure such brakeage does not happen,
>>> but it's a complex issue nevertheless.
>>>
>>> Also free software more often than commercial software follows a
>>> "release often, release early" philosophy. This of course means that
>>> released software is not that stable and can have more bugs.
>> I am 6 months on Ubuntu, found for over 60 applications alternatives.
>> Exept for the update service there is no appliction that messed up my
>> system in 6 months once.
>> Never lost any data. In windows I was half of the time busy to keep my
>> system going and to restore lost data or many times restore the entire
>> system, which took emensely amounts of time. In Ubuntu I have my system
>> running again within at most a couple of hours.
>> In windows I had on dayly basis trouble to keep my internet going. Now,
>> with Ubuntu if my pc runs I have connection. Windows I had to restart at
>> least 2 times within evry hour, I have now may one reboot in a week.
>> Although I worked under windows mostly with free software too, the
>> applications that I heavy paid for did not have any exeption related to
>> instabillity, and beside that the never could do what you expected,
>> always you had to something extra or somthing new. A never ending story.
>> Windows became from 95 worse with every new release, I think in the
>> Linux world it is the other way around, at least till now I believe that.
>> I worked with a lot of different photomanagement programs. Digikam is
>> the best, the most intuitive and productive I ever used. First time
>> since dos I have a stable system.

Maybe I have just luck, I hope it is not a dream, and I wake up some time.
> I have to use windows every now and then and it is rock stable.
Yes, if you use it every now and then, preferably never installing
something new and working with no virusscanner, firewall, anti spyware
etc etc running in the background and most of all never changing a thing
to your hardware, and not constantly having to run trough validation
processes because you put something new in your computer, and the beast
is not saying ¨do not shut down your computer if you just decided to do
so, and it is not saying ntldr not found in the morning if you realy
need to work, and it is not going in a startup loop and so on and so
further.

The telephone is ringing a lot here by panicking windows users, never
had a linux user to help.
>   Never
> had data loss in the last ten years. With my linux boxes I had crashes
> and data loss up to a no longer usable system (about 5 years ago). This
> to solve needed an experienced admin. Linux (as a OS, not the plain
> kernel) is a good system, but it is far from perfect. There are so many
> things left to do.
>
> Sometimes you have to pay for your freedom. And it is worth to do so.
pay for freedom? what freedom? the freedom of windows?
> What I don't get: There are many users out there who want to let windows
> behind. But they do not switch to linux but Mac OS-X. This OS is
> completely different from windows as linux is, but they don't use linux.
>
> Martin
Hi Martin,
Your answer confuses me. Why are you on Linux if windows is so much better?

>> Regards,
>> Rinus
>>> The severe
>>> bugs in DigiKam 2.0.0 could be one reason it is not yet included in
>>> Debian "unstable" (a kind of rolling release) which otherwise often is
>>> quite fast in picking up new versions:
>>>
>>> - Face recognition is in the user interface, but according to developer
>>>     Marcel Wiesweg it does not work yet:
>>>     http://mail.kde.org/pipermail/digikam-users/2011-August/013766.html
>>> - The new XMP sidecar support is only half-implemented:
>>>     http://mail.kde.org/pipermail/digikam-users/2011-August/013996.html
>>>     https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=220545
>>> - On many (Debian Linux) platforms digiKam 2.0 does not even compile:
>>>     https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=279581
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endianness#Endianness_and_operating_systems_on_architectures
>>>
>> Thats all true, but the list of great features working is huge compared
>> to this.
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Vlado
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Digikam-users mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/digikam-users
> _______________________________________________
> Digikam-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/digikam-users
>

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[Willem Ferguson]

We need to admit that different people have different reasons to switch
OS. I do it for both practical and philosophical reasons. Philosophy: I
do not like making rich American companies even more rich because this
does not promote financial, social and environmental sustainability.
Practical: I can do many things in Linux that are impossible to do in
Windows. Ever tried to format a 500 Gb USB disk with FAT32 in Windows
(which, by the way, is a standard Microsoft format)?? Same with software
and, specifically, photo managers. Therefore I am looking forward to see
a stable dk version 2. In the mean time I get along with version 1.9.

However, I work with a VM every day because I need to interact with
other individuals/companies that use Microsoft or OS/X. I run several
applications on a daily basis that are only available in Win. Therefore,
in order to produce, I have no choice but to work over more than one OS.
But I use Linux as a base and as a default. To achieve anything in the
world these days one needs to be adaptable, open to what others do.
Unfortunately, Microsoft and Apple operate on a basis of noncompatible,
closed systems. Then you depend solely on marketing strategy, not on the
merits of the product.

Let us promote openness of products, standards, and most of all, thought.

Kind regards,
Willem Ferguson.

On 30/08/2011 09:20, sleepless wrote:

>
> Op 30-08-11 08:21, Martin (KDE) schreef:
>> Am 29.08.2011 22:32, schrieb sleepless:
>>> Hi Paul,
>>> Op 29-08-11 22:03, Vlado Plaga schreef:
>>>> On Sat, 27 Aug 2011 23:34:24 -0400
>>>> Paul Verizzo<[hidden email]>   wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I have spent the last several weeks trying out about ten Linux
>>>>> distros in Virtual Box.
>>> I have been there and I would no one advice to, make a dual boot or
>>> switch completely, which I admit is not a simple matter.
>> A complete switch may be simple or may be not. This depends on several
>> experiences a user had before. An experienced windows user may have
>> problems with the unix/linux way of doing stuff. On the other hand: my
>> daughter for example has problems with windows. She is used to linux and
>> always try to run dolphin to handle her files. She says that windows is
>> so complicated.
>>
>> I have switched to linux completely (almost, there are two programs out
>> there I need an VM for - once or twice a year). And it was not hard.
>>
>>>> [...]
>>>>
>>>>> Closing, the question is about how Linux apps are updated......
>>>> Others have already supplied relatively detailes answers. I just want
>>>> to add: the way software is distributed in Linux simply is quite
>>>> different to the Windows (or Mac OS) way. You may notice that many
>>>> complex applications only require a fraction of the disk space
>>>> comparable applications use on these commercial systems. My e-mail
>>>> program (Claws Mail) for example has an "uncompressed size" of less
>>>> than 4 MBytes, according to the package manager. On Mac OS 10.5 "Mail"
>>>> uses 289 MBytes! One reason free software applications can be so small
>>>> is because they share a lot of "libraries" - but that of course makes
>>>> it difficult to update, because quite often newer versions of
>>>> applications require newer versions of the libraries which are no
>>>> longer compatible to the older versions... thus braking other
>>>> applications that depend on the same library. Of course package
>>>> management software is there to make sure such brakeage does not
>>>> happen,
>>>> but it's a complex issue nevertheless.
>>>>
>>>> Also free software more often than commercial software follows a
>>>> "release often, release early" philosophy. This of course means that
>>>> released software is not that stable and can have more bugs.
>>> I am 6 months on Ubuntu, found for over 60 applications alternatives.
>>> Exept for the update service there is no appliction that messed up my
>>> system in 6 months once.
>>> Never lost any data. In windows I was half of the time busy to keep my
>>> system going and to restore lost data or many times restore the entire
>>> system, which took emensely amounts of time. In Ubuntu I have my system
>>> running again within at most a couple of hours.
>>> In windows I had on dayly basis trouble to keep my internet going. Now,
>>> with Ubuntu if my pc runs I have connection. Windows I had to
>>> restart at
>>> least 2 times within evry hour, I have now may one reboot in a week.
>>> Although I worked under windows mostly with free software too, the
>>> applications that I heavy paid for did not have any exeption related to
>>> instabillity, and beside that the never could do what you expected,
>>> always you had to something extra or somthing new. A never ending
>>> story.
>>> Windows became from 95 worse with every new release, I think in the
>>> Linux world it is the other way around, at least till now I believe
>>> that.
>>> I worked with a lot of different photomanagement programs. Digikam is
>>> the best, the most intuitive and productive I ever used. First time
>>> since dos I have a stable system.
> Maybe I have just luck, I hope it is not a dream, and I wake up some
> time.
>> I have to use windows every now and then and it is rock stable.
> Yes, if you use it every now and then, preferably never installing
> something new and working with no virusscanner, firewall, anti spyware
> etc etc running in the background and most of all never changing a
> thing to your hardware, and not constantly having to run trough
> validation processes because you put something new in your computer,
> and the beast is not saying ¨do not shut down your computer if you
> just decided to do so, and it is not saying ntldr not found in the
> morning if you realy need to work, and it is not going in a startup
> loop and so on and so further.
>
> The telephone is ringing a lot here by panicking windows users, never
> had a linux user to help.
>>   Never
>> had data loss in the last ten years. With my linux boxes I had crashes
>> and data loss up to a no longer usable system (about 5 years ago). This
>> to solve needed an experienced admin. Linux (as a OS, not the plain
>> kernel) is a good system, but it is far from perfect. There are so many
>> things left to do.
>>
>> Sometimes you have to pay for your freedom. And it is worth to do so.
> pay for freedom? what freedom? the freedom of windows?
>> What I don't get: There are many users out there who want to let windows
>> behind. But they do not switch to linux but Mac OS-X. This OS is
>> completely different from windows as linux is, but they don't use linux.
>>
>> Martin
> Hi Martin,
> Your answer confuses me. Why are you on Linux if windows is so much
> better?
>>> Regards,
>>> Rinus
>>>> The severe
>>>> bugs in DigiKam 2.0.0 could be one reason it is not yet included in
>>>> Debian "unstable" (a kind of rolling release) which otherwise often is
>>>> quite fast in picking up new versions:
>>>>
>>>> - Face recognition is in the user interface, but according to
>>>> developer
>>>>     Marcel Wiesweg it does not work yet:
>>>>    
>>>> http://mail.kde.org/pipermail/digikam-users/2011-August/013766.html
>>>> - The new XMP sidecar support is only half-implemented:
>>>>    
>>>> http://mail.kde.org/pipermail/digikam-users/2011-August/013996.html
>>>>     https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=220545
>>>> - On many (Debian Linux) platforms digiKam 2.0 does not even compile:
>>>>     https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=279581
>>>>
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endianness#Endianness_and_operating_systems_on_architectures 
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Thats all true, but the list of great features working is huge compared
>>> to this.
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Vlado
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Digikam-users mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/digikam-users
>> _______________________________________________
>> Digikam-users mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/digikam-users
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Digikam-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/digikam-users
>

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[Photonoxx]

Le Tue, 30 Aug 2011 09:20:45 +0200, sleepless <[hidden email]>  
a écrit:

> Op 30-08-11 08:21, Martin (KDE) schreef:

>>   Never
>> had data loss in the last ten years. With my linux boxes I had crashes
>> and data loss up to a no longer usable system (about 5 years ago). This
>> to solve needed an experienced admin. Linux (as a OS, not the plain
>> kernel) is a good system, but it is far from perfect. There are so many
>> things left to do.
>>
>> Sometimes you have to pay for your freedom. And it is worth to do so.
> pay for freedom? what freedom? the freedom of windows?

I thing Martin means that using Linux, with its "non-perfect" aspect could  
be considered as a price to pay to gain freedom.

Anyway, there's no perfect OS, but Linux may be suffer of the missing of  
some common fonctionnality, not related to linux ability but related to  
the fact some softwares or (optimal) drivers aren't available on linux  
because they're edited by compagny which don't mind Linux or FreeSoftware.

In the other hand, Linux has some abilities that windows doesn't had too...

So we have to choose to pay for freedom (not with money but with something  
missing in your OS), or to pay for having all common softwares for  
personal use (and here you have to pay with money, with philosophical  
renunciation, and with using an OS which is, in my point of view,  
absolutely not optimised (for example, I don't understand why Windows  
Swapping if I do nothing and I have 4GB of memory))

>> What I don't get: There are many users out there who want to let windows
>> behind. But they do not switch to linux but Mac OS-X. This OS is
>> completely different from windows as linux is, but they don't use linux.
>>
>> Martin
> Hi Martin,
> Your answer confuses me. Why are you on Linux if windows is so much  
> better?

So I don't believe Martin things Windows is so much, he just say it's not  
so bad. ;>)
--
--
Nicolas Boulesteix
Photographe chasseur de lueurs
http://www.photonoxx.fr
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[Martin (KDE)]

Am Dienstag, 30. August 2011 schrieb sleepless:

> Op 30-08-11 08:21, Martin (KDE) schreef:
> > Am 29.08.2011 22:32, schrieb sleepless:
> >> Hi Paul,
> >>
> >> Op 29-08-11 22:03, Vlado Plaga schreef:
> >>> On Sat, 27 Aug 2011 23:34:24 -0400
> >>>
> >>> Paul Verizzo<[hidden email]>   wrote:
> >>>> I have spent the last several weeks trying out about ten Linux
> >>>> distros in Virtual Box.
> >>
> >> I have been there and I would no one advice to, make a dual boot
> >> or switch completely, which I admit is not a simple matter.
> >
> > A complete switch may be simple or may be not. This depends on
> > several experiences a user had before. An experienced windows
> > user may have problems with the unix/linux way of doing stuff.
> > On the other hand: my daughter for example has problems with
> > windows. She is used to linux and always try to run dolphin to
> > handle her files. She says that windows is so complicated.
> >
> > I have switched to linux completely (almost, there are two
> > programs out there I need an VM for - once or twice a year). And
> > it was not hard.
> >
> >>> [...]
> >>>
> >>>> Closing, the question is about how Linux apps are
> >>>> updated......
> >>>
> >>> Others have already supplied relatively detailes answers. I
> >>> just want to add: the way software is distributed in Linux
> >>> simply is quite different to the Windows (or Mac OS) way. You
> >>> may notice that many complex applications only require a
> >>> fraction of the disk space comparable applications use on
> >>> these commercial systems. My e-mail program (Claws Mail) for
> >>> example has an "uncompressed size" of less than 4 MBytes,
> >>> according to the package manager. On Mac OS 10.5 "Mail" uses
> >>> 289 MBytes! One reason free software applications can be so
> >>> small is because they share a lot of "libraries" - but that of
> >>> course makes it difficult to update, because quite often newer
> >>> versions of applications require newer versions of the
> >>> libraries which are no longer compatible to the older
> >>> versions... thus braking other applications that depend on the
> >>> same library. Of course package management software is there
> >>> to make sure such brakeage does not happen, but it's a complex
> >>> issue nevertheless.
> >>>
> >>> Also free software more often than commercial software follows
> >>> a "release often, release early" philosophy. This of course
> >>> means that released software is not that stable and can have
> >>> more bugs.
> >>
> >> I am 6 months on Ubuntu, found for over 60 applications
> >> alternatives. Exept for the update service there is no
> >> appliction that messed up my system in 6 months once.
> >> Never lost any data. In windows I was half of the time busy to
> >> keep my system going and to restore lost data or many times
> >> restore the entire system, which took emensely amounts of time.
> >> In Ubuntu I have my system running again within at most a
> >> couple of hours.
> >> In windows I had on dayly basis trouble to keep my internet
> >> going. Now, with Ubuntu if my pc runs I have connection.
> >> Windows I had to restart at least 2 times within evry hour, I
> >> have now may one reboot in a week. Although I worked under
> >> windows mostly with free software too, the applications that I
> >> heavy paid for did not have any exeption related to
> >> instabillity, and beside that the never could do what you
> >> expected, always you had to something extra or somthing new. A
> >> never ending story. Windows became from 95 worse with every new
> >> release, I think in the Linux world it is the other way around,
> >> at least till now I believe that. I worked with a lot of
> >> different photomanagement programs. Digikam is the best, the
> >> most intuitive and productive I ever used. First time since dos
> >> I have a stable system.
>
> Maybe I have just luck, I hope it is not a dream, and I wake up
> some time.
>
> > I have to use windows every now and then and it is rock stable.
>
> Yes, if you use it every now and then,

Every now and then to me is about 8 - 10 hours a day. I have to use it
for may daily work. And trust me, I am not a office only user.

> preferably never installing
> something new and working with no virusscanner, firewall, anti
> spyware etc etc running in the background and most of all never
> changing a thing to your hardware, and not constantly having to
> run trough validation processes because you put something new in
> your computer, and the beast is not saying ¨do not shut down your
> computer if you just decided to do so, and it is not saying ntldr
> not found in the morning if you realy need to work, and it is not
> going in a startup loop and so on and so further.
>
> The telephone is ringing a lot here by panicking windows users,
> never had a linux user to help.

I know that. My telephone is ringing as well from several windows
user. It is ringing from linux/unix users too.

>
> >   Never
> >
> > had data loss in the last ten years. With my linux boxes I had
> > crashes and data loss up to a no longer usable system (about 5
> > years ago). This to solve needed an experienced admin. Linux (as
> > a OS, not the plain kernel) is a good system, but it is far from
> > perfect. There are so many things left to do.
> >
> > Sometimes you have to pay for your freedom. And it is worth to do
> > so.
>
> pay for freedom? what freedom? the freedom of windows?
>
> > What I don't get: There are many users out there who want to let
> > windows behind. But they do not switch to linux but Mac OS-X.
> > This OS is completely different from windows as linux is, but
> > they don't use linux.
> >
> > Martin
>
> Hi Martin,
> Your answer confuses me. Why are you on Linux if windows is so much
> better?

Oh sorry, I thought I was clear in this. I use Linux because Linux is
heading to the right target, but it is not there. I use it beyond many
other do. I have set up a shared file base via NFS. This sounds easy
in the first hand, but have you ever tried nfs based home folders with
a laptop loosing the wireless connection every now and then? This will
crash your desktop. You have to go a different way (I use rsync via
ssh to sync the users home folder at login and logout).

I use single-sign-on (kerberos) for all computers in my network (linux
only) wherever it is possible. Again, what will your notebook do if
you are out of range of your network? Login is no longer possible
(This is solved by the sssd though). I have a groupware server running
(which support kerberos only partially), a proxy server (kerberized),
mailserver (kerberized as well) a central user management but it was a
bunch of work to get all things running (and guess what - I learned a
lot doing this and don't regret it).

If you buy a Windows small business server and five client licenses
for a couple of euros all this is included. And you can handle it with
a few mouse clicks. You can even use the command line if you want. It
is possible to query data from within the active directory server in
the command line to a detail no linux shell is able to. If you ever
tried the MS-powershell you will see what integration really is (or
may be).

I use Linux because my freedom is worth it. But this does not include
blindness of what others are able to do. Desktop wise Linux is already
on par with windows (imho). Feature wise it may be better but
configuration wise it is not. But it is getting better every day and
it is nice to see how things evolve.

Windows is not better than Linux it is different. But it is not worse
either. The main point for me is: It is not free.

Coming back to digikam: To me it is THE tool for managing photos. That
is the reason I use it since a 0.x version. Many friends of mine are
surprised how fast I can filter for some persons or locations. I don't
know any other software that can do this (kudos to Gilles, Marcel and
all the others working on it).

Regards

Martin
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[AT Ege]

Hi there,


> Also free software more often than commercial software follows a
> "release often, release early" philosophy. This of course means that
> released software is not that stable and can have more bugs. The severe
> bugs in DigiKam 2.0.0 could be one reason it is not yet included in
I can't compare how it is at the moment, but when I migrated from Win to
mainly linux, I found that very often free software beta's (including
free software under Win) seemed to work better then some proprietory
releases.
The quote I loved most came with a beta of some programm under Win:
"Microsoft would call it a release. I call it a beta." :-))
Though recently, esp in Gimp, I find a few bugs, which actually are
features. :-( A matter of taste I guess...

--
Andreas Ege

                24 The Birches
                 Shobdon
                 Herefordshire HR6 9NG
                 GB
                 Mobile: [phone]
                 Tel.: [phone]
                 http://spheniscid.net
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