Comments on Light Table

Hello Gilles, hi all...

I just saw the light table's video you posted on the planet, so went right
away and updated my svn-copy of digikam...

wow. first of all: congrats. I think the light-table is coming along very nice
and all the functionality needed for image comparison seems to be there
already.  the only thing I didn't like is that the navigation between the
images is kind of difficult/strange... I only tested it for a few minutes, so
I guess you could get used to it. but at least to me it seems to be somewhat
difficult to use.

I don't really see the point in the "navigate by pair" option, with the
right-image becoming the left-image and the next image becoming the new left
one...  but oh well, I guess I can just not use this function. BUT the one
thing that I find annoying, is that page-up/page-down moves only the
selection in the thumb-bar, but does not change the image in the table so I
have to go and click the "put it on the right" button. It would be great if
page-up/down (and left/right arrow) would change the image on the table
automatically. (as it works on "pair-navigation", but only change
the "selected" one, or the one on the right)

In case you are interested, take a look at this video.

http://idisk.mac.com/george_jardine-Public?view=web

just scroll down and look for  "20070418 Tutorial Podcast - Compare View +
QD"..
(NOTE: you have to change the agent-identification in konqueror or use
firefox)
It's 24 MB, and has a bit of blah-blah but it is worth it.  it shows the
light-table in lightroom (called "compare mode") which has probably not more
functionality than digikam, but it is (to me) easier to use.

I also think it would've been better to embed the light table in digikam
instead of opening a new window. maybe it's just me, because everyone seems
to find this ok (same goes for the editor)

... and finally... I took me a while to find out that middle-clicking on the
image changes the mouse to the "hand"-tool to move the picture. is there a
reason not to use just normal left-click to move the image around?

so. that's it for now.  keep up the good work!

cheers. luis



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Dnia środa 23 maj 2007, Luis De la Parra napisał:

> Hello Gilles, hi all...
>
> I just saw the light table's video you posted on the planet, so went
> right away and updated my svn-copy of digikam...
>
> wow. first of all: congrats. I think the light-table is coming along
> very nice and all the functionality needed for image comparison seems to
> be there already.  the only thing I didn't like is that the navigation
> between the images is kind of difficult/strange... I only tested it for
> a few minutes, so I guess you could get used to it. but at least to me
> it seems to be somewhat difficult to use.
>
> I don't really see the point in the "navigate by pair" option, with the
> right-image becoming the left-image and the next image becoming the new
> left one...  but oh well, I guess I can just not use this function. BUT
> the one thing that I find annoying, is that page-up/page-down moves only
> the selection in the thumb-bar, but does not change the image in the
> table so I have to go and click the "put it on the right" button. It
> would be great if page-up/down (and left/right arrow) would change the
> image on the table automatically. (as it works on "pair-navigation", but
> only change the "selected" one, or the one on the right)
>
> In case you are interested, take a look at this video.
>
> http://idisk.mac.com/george_jardine-Public?view=web
>
> just scroll down and look for  "20070418 Tutorial Podcast - Compare View
> + QD"..
> (NOTE: you have to change the agent-identification in konqueror or use
> firefox)
> It's 24 MB, and has a bit of blah-blah but it is worth it.  it shows the
> light-table in lightroom (called "compare mode") which has probably not
> more functionality than digikam, but it is (to me) easier to use.

Very nice tutorial and I completely agree. Navigation in Adobe Lightroom
is solved very, very well.

Few crucial (IMO) points:

1. Firts two images are loaded automatically into compare view.
2. One of them is Selected - The One, second only Candidate.
3. With arrow navigation you can switch between Candidates, The One
   always stays the same.
4. With one keypress you change Candidate into Selected

Really good video to see.

> I also think it would've been better to embed the light table in digikam
> instead of opening a new window. maybe it's just me, because everyone
> seems to find this ok (same goes for the editor)

Not possible for technical reasons. Everyone here agrees for this
because making this in one window would require huge amount of work on
basics instead of adding new, great features.

> ... and finally... I took me a while to find out that middle-clicking on
> the image changes the mouse to the "hand"-tool to move the picture. is
> there a reason not to use just normal left-click to move the image
> around?

Good point. In IE it is used for selecting, here could be immediately
available for panning.

m.

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[Gilles Caulier-4]

2007/5/23, Luis De la Parra <[hidden email]>:

Hello Gilles, hi all...

I just saw the light table's video you posted on the planet, so went right
away and updated my svn-copy of digikam...

wow. first of all: congrats. I think the light-table is coming along very nice
and all the functionality needed for image comparison seems to be there
already.  

Thanks...
 

the only thing I didn't like is that the navigation between the
images is kind of difficult/strange... I only tested it for a few minutes, so
I guess you could get used to it. but at least to me it seems to be somewhat
difficult to use.

Hum, are you tested to use Drag & drop between thumbbar and preview panels ?
 

I don't really see the point in the "navigate by pair" option, with the
right-image becoming the left-image and the next image becoming the new left
one...  but oh well, I guess I can just not use this function.

This mode is usefull for pro photograph witch have a lot of very similar pictures taken with a brief of time between shots. In this mode the pictures are loaded automaticly on Left and Right panels when you clic on a thumbs or when you use Page up / Page down. But i let's Arn to explain better this mode : he has the orginal idea to implemente it.
 

BUT the one
thing that I find annoying, is that page-up/page-down moves only the
selection in the thumb-bar, but does not change the image in the table so I
have to go and click the "put it on the right" button. It would be great if
page-up/down (and left/right arrow) would change the image on the table
automatically. (as it works on "pair-navigation", but only change
the "selected" one, or the one on the right)

Yes. See my previous comment. Presonaly, i use Drag & drop everywhere. Light Table support it on everyplace : thumbbar, preview panel, etc. You can drag & drop items selection between Album GUI window and Light table, or better directly an Album...

In case you are interested, take a look at this video.

http://idisk.mac.com/george_jardine-Public?view=web

just scroll down and look for  "20070418 Tutorial Podcast - Compare View +
QD"..
(NOTE: you have to change the agent-identification in konqueror or use
firefox)
It's 24 MB, and has a bit of blah-blah but it is worth it.  it shows the
light-table in lightroom (called "compare mode") which has probably not more
functionality than digikam, but it is (to me) easier to use.

Ok. I seen. The "Select" picture is locked and the "Candidate" can be changed in live. I can do it in LT. it's easy. But, try drag  and drop before. And also look like the zoom level is preserved in LT when you change the picture in a panel.

Personaly, i'm always using the mouse and never (excepted for some case) the keyboard. Toogle between mouse and keyboard is a waste of time to work. If you can do all with mouse why change (:=))). And, we use a GUI, not a text console with digiKam  (:=)))...

But it's my viewpoints. I'm originaly a Win32 users. I always use mouse...
 

I also think it would've been better to embed the light table in digikam
instead of opening a new window. maybe it's just me, because everyone seems
to find this ok (same goes for the editor)

This is my first approach to develop Light Table, but... After some tests, i have seen than embedding LT on Album GUI will introduce some problems :

1/ The code in Album gui will become more complex and very bloated. including new code will introduce unstability.
2/ The LT layout is not compatible with Album GUI layout. like you can see, we have 2 sidebars on LT used to give informations on the Left and Right panels. This is not possible to do it on Album gui, especially on left side where we have already a lot of sidebar tabs.
3/ We need the max space to display 2 pictures + thumbbar. Using a separate window give more possibilities.
4/ The menu is differents in Light Table than Album Gui. It's more clean to use a separate window for that.

Note than when you close the Light Table window, you don't lost anything. The window is just catch.  Press ALT+F6 and it will re-appear exactly as well when it have been closed...

Here i use Xinerama with 3 flats screens to work on pictures. It's very very very powerfull. I have one screen for album gui, one for LT, one for editor. Like drag & drop is implemented everywhere, it's really a pleasure to dispatch images/albums/selections over all windows :

http://digikam3rdparty.free.fr/Screenshots/lighttable_v7.png

... and finally... I took me a while to find out that middle-clicking on the
image changes the mouse to the "hand"-tool to move the picture. is there a
reason not to use just normal left-click to move the image around?

Well, to be homogenous with the rest of digiKam : image editor, preview mode from album gui, image plugins preview mode (noise reduction tool for ex.), etc. All use the middle mouse button to move preview contents.

Like Mik said, only Editor use the left mouse button to process image selection. In editor, we cannot use it to pan image. Of course, we can use Left button on the rest of digiKam to pan image,... but, are you tried to use the pan icon widget on the right bottom corner of editor and preview panels ?

 

so. that's it for now.  keep up the good work!

Thanks again (:=))))

Gilles

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Dnia czwartek 24 maj 2007, Gilles Caulier napisał:
> > images is kind of difficult/strange... I only tested it for a few
> > minutes, so
> > I guess you could get used to it. but at least to me it seems to be
> > somewhat
> > difficult to use.
>
> Hum, are you tested to use Drag & drop between thumbbar and preview
> panels ?

Slower than keyboard navigation.

> Ok. I seen. The "Select" picture is locked and the "Candidate" can be
> changed in live. I can do it in LT. it's easy. But, try drag  and drop
> before. And also look like the zoom level is preserved in LT when you
> change the picture in a panel.
>
> Personaly, i'm always using the mouse and never (excepted for some case)
> the keyboard. Toogle between mouse and keyboard is a waste of time to
> work. If you can do all with mouse why change (:=))). And, we use a GUI,
> not a text console with digiKam  (:=)))...
>
> But it's my viewpoints. I'm originaly a Win32 users. I always use
> mouse...

In my experience fastest way to use GUI applications is: 50-50 - one
hand on mouse, second on keyboard.

Linked video shows example of this work. Mouse is for panning, zoom,
calling additional panels but basic operations are done with keyboard
- and with single letter mappings - no combos!

m.

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On Thursday 24 May 2007 08:35:14 Gilles Caulier wrote:
> 2007/5/23, Luis De la Parra <[hidden email]>:
>
> Hum, are you tested to use Drag & drop between thumbbar and preview panels

yes. I've tried Drag & Drop.. and I think it's a good thing and should
definitively stay as an option... but I think it is too slow...


> This mode is usefull for pro photograph witch have a lot of very similar
> pictures taken with a brief of time between shots. In this mode the
> pictures are loaded automaticly on Left and Right panels when you clic on a
> thumbs or when you use Page up / Page down. But i let's Arn to explain
> better this mode : he has the orginal idea to implemente it.

still don't see the point. If you have tons of photos, I *could* probably
understand if you said "I want to scroll/review them all quickly".. but for
that you would have to jump two pictures at a time: showing picture 1 and
2..then clicking page down and showing 3 and 4 and not 2 and 3 like it is
now.  
like I said.. I don't really have anything against this feature and I can just
ignore it. Still.. I don't see the point, though.

> Personaly, i'm always using the mouse and never (excepted for some case)
> the keyboard. Toogle between mouse and keyboard is a waste of time to work.

Yes. I do use the mouse most of the time too.. but it does depend on the task
you are doing.
If I have for example 25 pictures I just shot and want to quickly review them,
trash the "no no"s and select the better ones from the rest, then I want to
1)click once to open the first picture in the preview and then
2)without looking at anything else or reaching for the mouse, just do a
quick "right arrow" or "page down" to change to the next one
3)if I really don't like the picture, quickly hit "delete" and have it
dissapear and the next one automatically loaded
4)If I really like one, just hit "4" to give it 4 stars   ( I really don't
want to grab the mouse, move it over the picture, do a right-mouse click and
select the rating from a sub-menu
5)repeat from 2) untill I'm done.

If you have good keyboard shortcuts (which I think Digikam doesn't have at the
moment), the keyboard can speed things a lot. specially if you have to do the
same thing for a lot of images (reviewing, sorting bads out, rating)

I think Digikam as a photo management and photo-editor is a very very very
powerful application, and I really like it. and I think it has pretty much
all features I want (at least the big part of them =), but some actions
just "take too long":
*rating is too difficult (submenu in popup-menu), or just one click on the
sidebar, but then you don't see the metadata.
*if you want to see exif AND iptc, it takes at least two clicks.
*the editor is very powerful, but the most-used options should probaby be
available on a panel and not only on the menu. one of the items in my
whish-list is cropping and small rotation (horizon correction) directly on
the image and not trough a dialog in the menu. (cropping is 'almost' there..
it's only missing "doulbe click on the selected area to commit the crop".
clicking and dragging up/down to rotate the photo a few degrees is still
missing.

ok ok. so this is degenerating to a  "the few things I find annoying about
digikam"-mail, which is really NOT my intention. All I wanted to do with this
mail was to tell you that I find the LT great, and that I would find it even
better if the navigation was easier.

> > instead of opening a new window. maybe it's just me, because everyone
> > seems
> > to find this ok (same goes for the editor)
>
> This is my first approach to develop Light Table, but... After some tests,
> i have seen than embedding LT on Album GUI will introduce some problems :

yes. I know this is easier said than done.

>
> Here i use Xinerama with 3 flats screens to work on pictures. It's very
> very very powerfull. I have one screen for album gui, one for LT, one for

wow.. 3 flats.  that sound like fun!

>
> Well, to be homogenous with the rest of digiKam : image editor, preview
> mode
> >from album gui, image plugins preview mode (noise reduction tool for ex.),
>
> etc. All use the middle mouse button to move preview contents.
>
consistency is good... "usefullness" is better:
the LT does not use the normal click for anything, so...
> use the pan icon widget on the right bottom corner of editor and preview
> panels ?
yes, and it's great. If I want to go from one corner of the photo to the
other, the pan-widgets is wonderful. If I want to just move a few centimeters
from where my mouse currently is.. dragging a bit is faster.

> Thanks again (:=))))

you're welcome!  I really think digikam is __by far__ the best photo-app for
linux, and feature-wise is really very advanced. the only negative point I'd
give it, is that (for me) some of the great features are more difficult to
use than they have to.

Regards.
luis

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Dnia czwartek 24 maj 2007, Luis De la Parra napisał:
> I think Digikam as a photo management and photo-editor is a very very
> very powerful application, and I really like it. and I think it has
> pretty much all features I want (at least the big part of them =), but
> some actions just "take too long":
> *rating is too difficult (submenu in popup-menu), or just one click on
> the sidebar, but then you don't see the metadata.
Ctrl-1 ... Ctrl-5

> *if you want to see exif AND iptc, it takes at least two clicks.

There is no possibility to see all metadata at the same time. Too many
information.

You can switch between sub-panels of Metadata panel with accelerators,
For me it is Alt-E for EXIF and Alt-I for IPTC. Keyboard navigation
through panels would be good thing, though.

> *the editor is very powerful, but the most-used options should probaby
> be available on a panel and not only on the menu. one of the items in my
> whish-list is cropping and small rotation (horizon correction) directly
> on the image and not trough a dialog in the menu. (cropping is 'almost'
> there.. it's only missing "doulbe click on the selected area to commit
> the crop". clicking and dragging up/down to rotate the photo a few
> degrees is still missing.

I wonder it it could be "fixed" with some cheating: when opening
imageplugin dialog "glue" it to IE window. No possibility to resize only
IP or close it. The same size etc.

m.

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[Gilles Caulier-4]

 

the only thing I didn't like is that the navigation between the
images is kind of difficult/strange... I only tested it for a few minutes, so
I guess you could get used to it. but at least to me it seems to be somewhat
difficult to use.

Hum, are you tested to use Drag & drop between thumbbar and preview panels ?

Luis,

i have added a new option in Light Table setup to load automaticly the selected image from thumbbar into the right panel.

Like this, you set an picture to Left panel (CTRL+L), and you navigate between the rest of thumbbar content using PAGE UP/DOWN. The selected item  on thummbar is automaticly  loaded on right panel and the left panel do not change. Comparison sound more easy like this.

This option is set on by default and just go to digiKam config dialog to disable it.

Please check out svn and give me your feedback. Thanks in advance...

Gilles

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Dnia sobota 26 maj 2007, Gilles Caulier napisał:

> > the only thing I didn't like is that the navigation between the
> >
> > > images is kind of difficult/strange... I only tested it for a few
> > > minutes, so
> > > I guess you could get used to it. but at least to me it seems to be
> > > somewhat
> > > difficult to use.
> >
> > Hum, are you tested to use Drag & drop between thumbbar and preview
> > panels ?
>
> Luis,
>
> i have added a new option in Light Table setup to load automaticly the
> selected image from thumbbar into the right panel.
>
> Like this, you set an picture to Left panel (CTRL+L), and you navigate
> between the rest of thumbbar content using PAGE UP/DOWN. The selected
> item on thummbar is automaticly  loaded on right panel and the left
> panel do not change. Comparison sound more easy like this.
>
> This option is set on by default and just go to digiKam config dialog to
> disable it.
>
> Please check out svn and give me your feedback. Thanks in advance...

Works very nice, still few comments:

1. When opening LT only one image (first) is loaded in right panel. Left
   panel is left empty. There should be: 1st image in left panel, 2nd
   image in right panel.
2. With keyboard navigation it isn't possible to place the same panel in
   both panels. Example: I have 4 images in LT; in left panel is second,
   in right panel is first. I press PageDown. Highlight in thumbbar goes
   to second image but image in right panel wasn't changed, it is still
   first image. Only after next PageDown highlighting in thumbbar is
   going to 3rd image and image in right panel is replaced. Well, this
   blockade has some merits but breaking some fluency. I would propose
   or remove this blockade or add small feature: PageDown/PageUp
   wrapping around list of images in thumbbar. That means: when PageDown
   is used on last image in thumbbar it goes to first image.

Wonderful work.

m.

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