Color management.. again

[Tommaso Schiavinotto-3]

I usually work with RAW (MRW), then I save PNG.

If after I want to work on some image that was saved PNG, as input
filter is taken the one from the camera (I suppose) and the image editor
shows a  much brighter image than the one I saved (and that I can see
with other viewer). It would make sense that for RAW the input profile
is that of the camera, while for others (JPG, PNG) the
embedded one should be used and a different color profile should be
provided other than that of the camera.

--Tommaso
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[Teudimundo]

Tommaso Schiavinotto wrote:

> I usually work with RAW (MRW), then I save PNG.
>
> If after I want to work on some image that was saved PNG, as input
> filter is taken the one from the camera (I suppose) and the image editor
> shows a  much brighter image than the one I saved (and that I can see
> with other viewer). It would make sense that for RAW the input profile
> is that of the camera, while for others (JPG, PNG) the
> embedded one should be used and a different color profile should be
> provided other than that of the camera.
>  

If I let the Image viewer to ask how I want to manage the color profiles
it tells me that the image has
no color profile (beside I saved from the image viewer and I have the
output color profile set to sRGB),
so it tries to "reconvert" the already sRGB png in sRGB making the image
brighter...

--Tommaso
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[Teudimundo]

Ok.. I'm sorry forget everything... to clone out some dust, I opened it
with The Gimp, loosing all the information
about the sRGB and the 16bits as well, and I saved the image on the same
PNG as a mistake.

Sorry for blaming you...

Tommaso Schiavinotto wrote:

> Tommaso Schiavinotto wrote:
>  
>> I usually work with RAW (MRW), then I save PNG.
>>
>> If after I want to work on some image that was saved PNG, as input
>> filter is taken the one from the camera (I suppose) and the image editor
>> shows a  much brighter image than the one I saved (and that I can see
>> with other viewer). It would make sense that for RAW the input profile
>> is that of the camera, while for others (JPG, PNG) the
>> embedded one should be used and a different color profile should be
>> provided other than that of the camera.
>>  
>>    
> If I let the Image viewer to ask how I want to manage the color profiles
> it tells me that the image has
> no color profile (beside I saved from the image viewer and I have the
> output color profile set to sRGB),
> so it tries to "reconvert" the already sRGB png in sRGB making the image
> brighter...
>
> --Tommaso
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>
>  

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[Gilles Caulier-2]

On Thursday 15 June 2006 23:49, Tommaso Schiavinotto wrote:
> Ok.. I'm sorry forget everything... to clone out some dust, I opened it
> with The Gimp, loosing all the information
> about the sRGB and the 16bits as well, and I saved the image on the same
> PNG as a mistake.
>
> Sorry for blaming you...

No problem. Gimp is a shame about metadata preservation, Color management, and
16 bits color depth rules !

I'm working like you with my MRW files. I convert it to PNG. All metadata are
preserved and the workspace color profiles is recorded into the image. There
is no problem to reload it later in editor.

Gilles
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[Teudimundo]

Gilles Caulier wrote:

>On Thursday 15 June 2006 23:49, Tommaso Schiavinotto wrote:
>  
>
>>Ok.. I'm sorry forget everything... to clone out some dust, I opened it
>>with The Gimp, loosing all the information
>>about the sRGB and the 16bits as well, and I saved the image on the same
>>PNG as a mistake.
>>
>>Sorry for blaming you...
>>    
>>
>
>No problem. Gimp is a shame about metadata preservation, Color management, and
>16 bits color depth rules !
>
>I'm working like you with my MRW files. I convert it to PNG. All metadata are
>preserved and the workspace color profiles is recorded into the image. There
>is no problem to reload it later in editor.
>  
>

:) Is it planned any clone in the image editor? I probably would never
need to open The Gimp any more...
anyway I find the interface of cinepaint quite annoying, and I'm waiting
to see how krita evolves...

--Tommaso


>Gilles
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>  
>

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[Gilles Caulier-2]

On Friday 16 June 2006 11:10, Tommaso Schiavinotto wrote:

> Gilles Caulier wrote:
> >On Thursday 15 June 2006 23:49, Tommaso Schiavinotto wrote:
> >>Ok.. I'm sorry forget everything... to clone out some dust, I opened it
> >>with The Gimp, loosing all the information
> >>about the sRGB and the 16bits as well, and I saved the image on the same
> >>PNG as a mistake.
> >>
> >>Sorry for blaming you...
> >
> >No problem. Gimp is a shame about metadata preservation, Color management,
> > and 16 bits color depth rules !
> >
> >I'm working like you with my MRW files. I convert it to PNG. All metadata
> > are preserved and the workspace color profiles is recorded into the
> > image. There is no problem to reload it later in editor.
> >
> :) Is it planned any clone in the image editor? I probably would never
>
> need to open The Gimp any more...
> anyway I find the interface of cinepaint quite annoying, and I'm waiting
> to see how krita evolves...

Yes, there is a file in B.K.O about this subject. It's
 planed later than 0.9.0. We need to rewrite Image Editor canvas
implementation to use a separate interface about pixels manipulation tools

Gilles
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[Per Aalrust]

Hi Gilles,

> I'm working like you with my MRW files. I convert it to PNG. All metadata
> are preserved and the workspace color profiles is recorded into the image.
> There is no problem to reload it later in editor.

        I'm also working with MRW files. How are you converting your MRW's?
Would be very interesting to learn your workflow. Do you shoot your pictures
in Adobe RGB or sRGB? Which color profile do you use?

Thanks for your input.

Best regards
Per
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[Teudimundo]

I think the best one to ask is Gilles :)

I use digikam (CVS) version, it is a wonderful tool.
I've set the input profile the one for my camera (dynax 5D). I would
like to use
the AdobeRGB alternatively to the sRGB, depending what I'm doing,
It's not clear to me how to do it (and neither what I want to do :).
So at the moment (since I'm mostly posting picture on flickr,
http://www.flickr.com/photos/Teudimundo), I use only sRGB, even knowing it
is the evil.

What about tagging with "digikam" all the pictures on flickr that have
used digikam
in the workflow ?
(not that digikam should do it, but the photographer! :).

--Tommaso

Per Aalrust wrote:

>Hi Gilles,
>
>  
>
>>I'm working like you with my MRW files. I convert it to PNG. All metadata
>>are preserved and the workspace color profiles is recorded into the image.
>>There is no problem to reload it later in editor.
>>    
>>
>
> I'm also working with MRW files. How are you converting your MRW's?
>Would be very interesting to learn your workflow. Do you shoot your pictures
>in Adobe RGB or sRGB? Which color profile do you use?
>
>Thanks for your input.
>
>Best regards
>Per
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>
>  
>

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[Gilles Caulier-2]

On Friday 16 June 2006 15:27, Tommaso Schiavinotto wrote:

> I think the best one to ask is Gilles :)
>
> I use digikam (CVS) version, it is a wonderful tool.
> I've set the input profile the one for my camera (dynax 5D). I would
> like to use
> the AdobeRGB alternatively to the sRGB, depending what I'm doing,
> It's not clear to me how to do it (and neither what I want to do :).
> So at the moment (since I'm mostly posting picture on flickr,
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/Teudimundo), I use only sRGB, even knowing it
> is the evil.

Like you. I'm shoot my picture in AdobeRGB with my Dynax5D and convert it
later when i open the MRW picture in image editor using 16 bits color depth
mode and ICC color management enable.

I use the ICC color profiles provides with Minolta DImage win32 app (camera
and color space). Look in my ICC profiles repository here :

http://digikam3rdparty.free.fr/ICCPROFILES/

When a MRW picture is open into editor, digiKam ask to convert this on in the
right color space. I don't have a black hole image !

After i need just to adapt gamma or curves, and i convert it to PNG, witch one
preserve Exif/Makernote metadata (Tiff cannot done this task properlly
actually duing a shame limitation of libtiff). This way will be fixed when
Exiv2 library will support TIFF in writting mode. It's just a question of
time (:=)))

But i'm very happy with PNG. It's my preferred file format to strore decode
RAW file into RGB 16 bits mode without losing image quality.

I'm currently working in Exiv2 to support PNG writting mode. Like this, we can
change/store Exif/makernote/Iptc on the fly like it's does with JPEG, without
re-encode the whole image (like libPNG does (:=(((... This is a chalenge for
me : doing the PNG file format support in digiKam better than all others
linux photo applications !

Gilles


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[Per Aalrust]

Hi Gilles,

> Like you. I'm shoot my picture in AdobeRGB with my Dynax5D and convert it
> later when i open the MRW picture in image editor using 16 bits color depth
> mode and ICC color management enable.

        So you are only using digikam 0.9.x version? The conversion is done by
dcraw, like in 0.8.x version?

Regards
Per
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[Gilles Caulier-2]

Le Samedi 17 Juin 2006 15:53, Per Aalrust a écrit :
> Hi Gilles,
>
> > Like you. I'm shoot my picture in AdobeRGB with my Dynax5D and convert it
> > later when i open the MRW picture in image editor using 16 bits color
> > depth mode and ICC color management enable.
>
> So you are only using digikam 0.9.x version?

Yes, of course, i'm using 0.9.0 in production, but i'm developper (:=)))

> The conversion is done by
> dcraw, like in 0.8.x version?

yes, but there is a new way. Let's me explain :

1 / you can convert RAW file like in 0.8.x using 8 bits color depth. You don't
need color managementin this case because dcraw set the color balance
automaticly. I never use this mode because this is not the better color depth
workflow to convert a raw file... but it's simple and fast.

2 / you can convert RAW file using 16 bits color depth. This is the better RAW
workflow, but it's more complicated : the decoded RAW file in RGB is in
linear mode and there is no color balance ! This is why we need color
management in this case, to use the LUT of the camera (icc camera profile)
and the LUT of color workspace (icc workspace profile). Color management is
important here because without using it, the RAW decoding result will be a
black hole.

Minolta color profile are very good and work very well with digiKam. The MRW
result in 16 bits are similar than DImage win32 application give. This is not
the case of Nikon and Canon. I suspect that icc color profile for this camera
are uncomplete (no gamma correction LUT). For that, i recommend to use the
icc profile files provided with bibble program (free using during 15 days).
The profiles of bibble program are installed into your computer
in /usr/share/apps/...

A nice day

Gilles

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