Black and white images

[david-vj]

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[Gilles Caulier-4]

2010/1/28 davidvincentjones <[hidden email]>:
>
> There are a few things that I notice on importing raw B/W images into DK.
> from my Canon 50D
>
> 1. Although the thumbnail shows a B/W image the raw decode treats the data
> as if it is full color.

Normal. Raw data are always in color.

Preview is preprocessed image in B&W

I has the same behavior in my Minolta camera.

>
> 2. The Canon and EXIF information is not indicating that this is in B/W

Exiv2 relevant, typicaly it's in Makernote, not in standard Exif metadata.

Sound like Canon makernote are outdated or you use an old Exiv2 release.

>
> 3. Adjusting the curve in the Color> B/W operation is not as sophisticated
> as in the Color> Curves-Adjust ... it would be noce to have some consistancy
> in this area.

Hum. As operation are preprocessed to convert RGB to B&W, and curve
applied to B&W, this is a non sence to have RGB curves there.
Typicialy, curve is just to adjust brighness for high/middle/low
levels.

Gilles
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[Bill Yiannakos]

I would strongly recommend to do the B&W convertion ON THE PC! Every digital camera has only one single way to convert color to B&W. On the other hand, when you work on your PC you have numerous different ways to achieve the exact result YOU want, and not the one -almost randomly- generated by the camera....

---

Vasilis Yiannakos Photography
photography(at)yiannakos.gr
www.yiannakos.gr
Athens, Hellas

---

On Thu, 2010-01-28 at 11:24 +0100, Gilles Caulier wrote:

2010/1/28 davidvincentjones <[hidden email]>:
>
> 3. Adjusting the curve in the Color> B/W operation is not as sophisticated
> as in the Color> Curves-Adjust ... it would be noce to have some consistancy
> in this area.

Hum. As operation are preprocessed to convert RGB to B&W, and curve
applied to B&W, this is a non sence to have RGB curves there.
Typicialy, curve is just to adjust brighness for high/middle/low
levels.

Gilles

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[Brice Boyer-2]

Hello
I agree with david. Of course, B+W converstion can be adjusted/reworked on the PC. But most dslr have *many* ways to do B+W and especially when you shoot monochrome, it is nice to see your result on the spot. The good thing about raw picture is that none of the adjustment is done to the raw file (but it is of course done to the jpeg file if you shoot raw+jpg). So if you are not using a proprietary software, your raw file will never be decoded just like your camera would have done.
Maybe it would be good if digikam could try and mimic these in this aspect but I think it is really difficult. It has to be able to decipher the exif tags (what exiv2 does not fully do) and then apply camera settings for accentuation, constrast, luminosity, filter, turn (reading my b+w menu)  and then reproduce the effect accordingly. You will never get the same result your camera/official software internal opaque magic would have produced and I'm not sure it's worth the effort: you can do it yourself... Perhaps not with digikam that is not meant for raw photography but rawtherappee ? (rawstudio, gimp,... ?)
cheers

brice
PS @ vasilis : some cameras do not produce almost random B+W images... ;)

2010/1/29 Vasilis Yiannakos <[hidden email]>

I would strongly recommend to do the B&W convertion ON THE PC! Every digital camera has only one single way to convert color to B&W. On the other hand, when you work on your PC you have numerous different ways to achieve the exact result YOU want, and not the one -almost randomly- generated by the camera....

---

Vasilis Yiannakos Photography
photography(at)yiannakos.gr
www.yiannakos.gr
Athens, Hellas

---

On Thu, 2010-01-28 at 11:24 +0100, Gilles Caulier wrote:

2010/1/28 davidvincentjones <[hidden email]
>:
>
> 3. Adjusting the curve in the Color> B/W operation is not as sophisticated
> as in the Color> Curves-Adjust ... it would be noce to have some consistancy
> in this area.

Hum. As operation are preprocessed to convert RGB to B&W, and curve
applied to B&W, this is a non sence to have RGB curves there.
Typicialy, curve is just to adjust brighness for high/middle/low
levels.

Gilles

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[Bill Yiannakos]

With the "almost random" I just want to emphasize that when you shoot B&W within the camera, you get always the same result (a desaturated image with some basic filtering...) On the other hand, when you convert to b&w you have full authority over the result, so you can apply limitless filtering over the initial color, so that you can get any contrast / tone result you want! I too shoot b&w with my cameras (so that I will be able to check the image directly on b&w on the screen), but then always convert the raw to b&w on the PC!
Sure, digikam is somehow basic to its b&w conversion, but there are plenty of other methods....

By the way, in my case (I use Olympus E-3 and Panasonic LX-3) digikam shows the raws as I shoot them (b&w)

---

Vasilis Yiannakos
billyiannakos(at)gmail.com
www.yiannakos.gr
oximata.yiannakos.gr
Athens, Hellas

On Fri, 2010-01-29 at 11:08 -0700, Brice Boyer wrote:

PS @ vasilis : some cameras do not produce almost random B+W images... ;)

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[david-vj]

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[Bill Yiannakos]

Sorry, maybe it's my fault not to mention that I do not compare the raw bw with the one generated by digikam processing....
When it has to do with bw conversion, I do it either in Photoshop with the famous Russel Brown technique, or (and better) in Adobe Lightroom, by working directly on the raw. These results are far superior to any in-camera processing that I have seen (non only in my cameras)
Unfortunately all open source raw converters can't do very well the job (yet). And yes, when it come to new DSLRs (like your canon 50D, my Olympus E-3 etc) in camera bw raw processing is fairly good. But when you have the FULL color information available, you can ALWAYS try different process methods to get what every time YOU want

So, actually, my opinion is that it is wise to have the full color information available, so that you can work on it as you want. When you shoot directly to bw, you lose some information, so your work possibilities are less. Fortunately, when you shoot raw, you have all the information available when you want it

---

Vasilis Yiannakos
billyiannakos(at)gmail.com
www.yiannakos.gr
oximata.yiannakos.gr
Athens, Hellas

On Sat, 2010-01-30 at 02:14 -0800, davidvincentjones wrote:

I am not sure what you mean (or imply) by "random". I am usaware of anything
random in my raw data and I would never 'hang my hat' on  the JPG format.

I am using a Canon 50D and when I use the B/W setting my tests indicate
better results than shooting in Color and then converting. I do not use the
DK 'filtering' or other options; they do not appear to be helpful personally
for me.

In most instances I find very 'acceptable' results using DK although I must
admit to using UFRaw for some batch work and on rare occasions I use
CinePaint for part of the process when dealing with extremly difficult
highlights and if I am pushed into "dodging and burning".  I do not
subscribe to Gimp due to the 8 bit limitation which becomes, to me, quite
apparent in monochrome.

For me, there is an entirely different 'feel' in working in the B/W mode
that I am better able to capture with the 'long shoulder' and B/W settings
on my camera. ... maybe that's just me.

I  am fairly comfortable sticking, for the most part, with DK for both
monochrome as well as color. A little more sophisticated adjustment in some
areas of luminescence would be most welcome for sure .... but I am sure that
it will come in good time. After 50 years in a darkroom, DK is a real
winner.

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[david-vj]

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